MR SARAN: So good morning. Let me also welcome you to the business end of the Raisina Dialogue after yesterday's inauguration. For us at ORF and at the Raisina Dialogue, this is a very special day. Many years ago, 2017 if I recall, we toyed with the idea of bringing the admirals from Quad together. I can see the Pacific Command table here, and the Pacific Command was instrumental partner in trying to cajole others to join in to having and discussing the possibilities of Quad being an actor, being a player, being a contributor to the world at whole. Let me tell you, all capitals are very shy, and everyone was asking us at that time should we probably involve another country, someone else, so that it doesn't look like Quad, that doesn't feel like Quad, we can try and dilute it a little. So from that time many years ago to today when we have the Quad Squad sitting here, we have come a long way.
So we are thrilled and thank you all of you very - for joining us, and it's a fantastic day for Raisina. So let me start with Minister Wong. Minister Wong, you've just stepped out of a meeting. You had a formal meeting this morning of - with your colleagues. Let me ask you: How does this group add to your agenda? You are now writing Australian foreign policy future. How does this meeting help in your individual agenda in Australia? And certainly since you are focused on the Pacific and ASEAN, how can Quad be a complementary actor, a supportive actor, perhaps even a contributor to your own assessment and ambitions in that region?
FOREIGN MINISTER WONG: Well, can I start with a complementarity point because I think that answers the first part of your question? I mean, the complementarity of this configuration with the architecture of the region, some of which you referenced, I think is demonstrated from Australia's perspective by our geography and by our interests.
So in terms of our geography, we are the smallest economy here. We're the most - southern most economy here. We are bounded on one side by the Indian Ocean and the other side by the Pacific, as it, Asia - ASEAN in particular, to our north the countries of ASEAN. So for us, our interests lie in a world which is being reshaped and a region which is being reshaped in working through this and the architecture of the region to ensure a region which I describe as stable, peaceful, secure, and respectful of sovereignty. So our geography and our interests lead to complementarity.
So I also believe that there is a tangible complementarity in the sense that there are things that we engage with Pacific Island nations on, things with which we engage with the ASEAN - countries of the ASEAN region on, issues on which we engage in this grouping, and they are all aligned with our interests in economic development, in prosperity, in stability, and in the protection of sovereignty.
MR SARAN: Since you're also in the very first year of your - of the new role that you've assumed, and to the Indian audience that's hearing you, what is Australia's assessment of India's role in the region, in your life? And by inference, perhaps also where are we headed in the bilateral?
FOREIGN MINISTER WONG: I mean, India is —
MR SARAN: And can I request you to bring the mike closer to you? Thank you. Yeah.
FOREIGN MINISTER WONG: Right. I could answer the question in power terms and in influence terms. I could talk about the extent to which India is a critical power, a great power in the region, that there is no reshaping of the Indo-Pacific with the attributes that Australia would seek without India. I'd also make the point - and I think we've seen that in not only in how Jai engages with the world and his narrative around it, but also Prime Minister Modi. India is a civilizational power - brings a different perspective to some of the challenges of these times.
MR SARAN: I'm going to come back to you, Minister Wong, but let me now turn to Secretary Blinken. One of the big conversations in India and other parts of the Indo-Pacific certainly is around how distracted is America with the conflict in Europe and how committed is it to continuing to engage in this region. Is Quad an interim consultative group even as the real action unfolds with your old allies and in the old world?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: I think the very fact not only of our presence here today but our presence and engagement day-in, day-out, including through the Quad and the work that we're doing not only during the meetings that we have but in between, is powerful evidence of the fact that, as you might say, we can run and chew gum at the same time. And for us the future is so much in the Indo-Pacific. Our engagement throughout the region, both through the Quad and in other ways, is as comprehensive and as deep as any time I can remember.
And I think what we talked about yesterday in the course of the G20 was also illustrative of this, because even as we're rightly focused on what is happening in Ukraine as a result of the Russian aggression, not just because it matters to Ukrainians and to Ukraine and to Europe, but because it matters to the entire world. The principles that underlie the entire international system that are necessary for trying to keep peace, the stability that grew out of two world wars are being challenged, being aggressed along with Ukraine. And part of the reason that countries way beyond Europe are also so focused on this and are working to support Ukraine and deal with the challenge is because they know it could have an effect here. If we allow with impunity Russia to do what it's doing in Ukraine, then that's a message to wouldbe aggressors everywhere that they may be able to get away with it too.
But having said that, you saw yesterday and you see today in this meeting of the Quad an equally intense focus on the issues that are having an impact on the lives of all of our fellow citizens where the Quad is a force, I believe, for good, positive, affirmative action. What's in so many ways important about it is this: first, we start with the proposition that virtually none of the challenges that our people are facing and that people around the world are facing can be effectively dealt with by any one country acting alone, whether it's the United States, whether it's India, whether it's Japan, whether it's Australia.
And given that basic premise, it makes sense for us to start by finding likeminded groups of countries with which to tackle these challenges. And the great power of the Quad is you have four likeminded countries united in their basic values, united in their basic interests, bringing different strengths, different experiences, different comparative weights to tackling these problems. And not only tackling for ourselves, but actually creating a global commons good, particularly for other countries in the Indo-Pacific.
And what we've done over the last couple of years in particular is translated that into very practical projects, very practical - in a sense - offerings, so that we're creating for other countries in the region a positive choice and a positive partner. We're doing that - obviously we did this on vaccines under - during COVID. We've been doing it on infrastructure for some time. We are now engaged very much in working together to help countries deal with humanitarian situations, disasters.
And of course, we're working on things that are really critical in ways that may not be so obvious to countries throughout the region, which is what's called maritime domain awareness: giving countries the capacity, the tools, to have a full picture of everything that's happening in their maritime space, which is affecting the lives of many of their citizens; for example, illegal fishing. So I think not only are we not distracted; on the contrary, we're more deeply engaged than ever, and the Quad is one of the most critical vehicles for that engagement.
MR SARAN: Secretary, our bilateral relationships, India-U.S. bilateral relationships, have taken a step forward with this latest critical and emerging technologies agreement, a lot of excitement, a lot of coverage. Can the Quad elevate itself to collaborate on critical defense technologies, or is that going to be the - preserved for AUKUS and for the old partners? Does Quad have a vision for also working together on building the defense for future?
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Well, I'd say two things. First, of course this is not a military grouping. It's not that kind of alliance. But one of the things that we are doing through the Quad is trying to bring together not only governments but academia and other experts to look at where we might collaborate together on new technology, on innovation, and whether that has benefits in other areas remains to be seen.
But clearly, our four countries in particular are very well-placed to increase in a variety of ways our collaboration on emerging technology and on innovation, and that's something that we'll also do through the Quad.
MR SARAN: Minister Hayashi, is Quad relevant for Japan's maritime security concerns? How is it important for what's unfolding in East China Sea? Do you think it is a feel-good talk shop consultative group, or do you think it has the potential to be able to put together something that will be of use to you when things get rough?
FOREIGN MINISTER HAYASHI: Thank you, thank you. Like Tony said, this Quad is not for security issues nor military issues, but practical cooperation like everybody said. So since your question is about might and security, this is not directly for the security, but through those cooperation and including four of us, and then the (inaudible) Blue Pacific areas like Pacific Island countries and ASEAN and also South Asia. This understanding and mutual understanding and cooperation, then the - there will make some combined will to cherish the same value like democracy, freedom, and that will eventually help to have more security assurance environment for all of us.
MR SARAN: Okay, it's not a security actor. The other important area that Japan is focused on is connectivity, and it is investing in infrastructure across the region. Do you think Quad can have an agenda for connectivity and infrastructure? Do you think it could be an actor and contribute to that?
FOREIGN MINISTER HAYASHI: Yes, through our bilateral ODAs and also through some international institutions, we've been already in many decades doing some infrastructure and also economic cooperation in these areas. But on the top of that this Quad is not only bilateral like Japan and some countries, but this is a Quad as a whole will be coordinating all those efforts of four countries so that we can do much better than just one plus one plus one is four. One plus one plus one plus one is four, but the one plus one plus one plus one could be six, seven or eight by coordinating and listening. We have now eight ears to listen to all those needs of the countries, and communicate and coordinating in the Quad like we did in this morning. We can listen more and we can do more.
MR SARAN: Eight ears, but you also have four tongues, and we have to be watchful there.
But let me ask you the last final question for this round to you, Minister Hayashi. The China factor. Many of us have a very strong economic relationship - Japan certainly does - with China. China disapproves of the Quad, and in some sense, you have to navigate that as well. How does Japan do that?
FOREIGN MINISTER HAYASHI: So like we said, like I said, this not a military but this is just practical cooperation and we don't trying to exclude anybody. This is an open architecture. So one thing we would like to say is to just abide by the law, of international law, international institutions. And as long as even China abide by the rule of the international norm and also act like - act under the international institutions, standards, and laws, then this is not conflicting issues between China and the Quad.
MR SARAN: Let me turn to you, Minister Jaishankar, and perhaps you can enlighten us. Why was Quad in some ways dead on arrival 10 to 15 years ago when the first avatar was being discussed, debated, even considered, to today India hosting the Quad panel discussion at Raisina Dialogue? What changed, why did it change, and how does this really reflect how you assess the importance of the region and the group in the region?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: Well, Samir, I don't think it was dead on arrival. It was dead a few months after arrival, and there's - and it's important to understand why, because by some coincidence I happen to be associated with different phases of the Quad. I take the Quad back to Boxing Day 2004 when the Indian Ocean tsunami happened. It so happened at that time I was the country coordinator for our external coordination and response. Then in 2006 when Prime Minister Abe came to India, he before coming had this idea that the Quad could be an effective way of dealing with the challenges. There was actually a Quad meeting - if my memory serves me right - in Manila in 2007, and then, as you say, it didn't work out. If you ask me why didn't it work out as opposed to what happened 10 years later - because it was revived 10 years later, 2017, at the level of under secretaries, vice ministers; I was foreign secretary then - '17 it was revived, then '19 it became a foreign ministers level. And when the Biden administration came in in '21, it became a summit level.
So what's the difference between '17, '19, '21, as opposed to 2007? One, I think there was greater strategic clarity on the part of all the countries concerned. Two, our own inter-state relations changed during this period. If I were to look at India's ties with the U.S., it became much deeper; with Japan also it grew; and I think the real big change has been in the last decade with Australia. So in a way, Quad is working in 2023 partly, as I said, because we have greater strategic clarity.
I also think we have leaderships with a greater sense of purpose who are less encumbered by baggage. But to me, a big difference is actually our inter-state relationship, which has today become so much more confident and so much deeper. So, in fact, the one point I would differ with Minister Hayashi - actually, I hope one day it will be 1,111, the one-one-one-one. (Laughter.)
MR SARAN: When you walked in, all of you seemed quite at ease, and there was a bit of a relaxed feel, vibe to it.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: There's always a relaxed feel when we meet.
MR SARAN: So what did you discuss inside the room? (Laughter.)
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: A lot of things, but if my colleagues would indulge me, we actually today captured some of our discussions in the form of a statement. I think that statement would have been put out or will be put out. So if you ask me what were the new things which came out today, we agreed on a counterterrorism working group; we agreed on cooperating more closely with the Indian Ocean Rim Association; we agreed that there would be a - we had earlier worked out a HADR Quad initiative, so the standard operating procedures for that, which I think the military people would obviously see as a prerequisite for their cooperation.
I think we coordinated on the UN to make sure that the processes of the UN are respected and the workings of the UN sort of stay true to its spirit. I was personally happy that there was a stronger expression of support from all of us collectively to the reform of the UN, to the fact that there would be intergovernmental negotiations on the reform. I also see that on - when it comes to sustainable development goals, which all of us are committed to, we believe that they should be pursued comprehensively, not cherrypicked for political convenience.
We will be doing our maritime security working group very shortly in Washington, and we discussed - among other things, one of the outcomes we agreed on was that the listings of terrorists - the counterterrorism side listings - should not be politicized.
So these were some of the outcomes. So, I mean, there were a lot of things which I can't tell you, so - but this is the public side of what we can tell you. So I thought collectively I should be putting it out.
MR SARAN: And how do you respond to this common refrain that most politicians seem to indulge in from the Quad countries that this is not against anyone, we are not a security grouping, we are not a military grouping. Why are we apologetic?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: No, I don't think - look, we are not apologetic. I do believe - because I keep reminding people of 2004, because to me, if your origins are in common good, there's a lot - there's a innate virtue in your existence, okay? So we do stand for something. What I would not like to be defined as is standing against something or somebody, because that diminishes me. That makes it out as though some other people are the center of the world and I'm only there to be for them or against them. I don't think - actually, I think I'm the center of the world, but that's a different matter. (Laughter.)
MR SARAN: Okay, so I'm going to turn to - as is custom here, I'm going to turn to our young fellows. We have 48 young fellows from 33 countries who are spending two weeks with us, and typically we go to a couple of them for every session to hear their thoughts, their questions for all of you. So I'll turn to - first to Teesta and then to Kirtbir. Teesta, introduce yourself very briefly.
QUESTION: Good morning, ministers. My name is Teesta Prakash and I'm from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute in Canberra, and my question to you is: How do we build a regional consensus in the Indo-Pacific given the four Quad countries sit on the periphery of the Indo-Pacific? How do we then include Southeast Asia? How do we bring the Pacific Islands with us to really sort of create a regional narrative for what is a second - not a security, perhaps, but an economic architecture? How do we bring the region along with the four Quad countries? Thank you.
MR SARAN: And can I just add to that - because all of you have also invoked the term - look, all of you have started speaking like each other, and that worries me. All of you say "ASEAN centrality."
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: It actually makes me happy.
MR SARAN: Okay. You say "ASEAN centrality," and we keep thinking what does that really mean. Does it mean that beautiful flower arrangement in the middle of the room when four of you are sitting? What does it really mean? So - sorry, the second question, Kirtbir.
QUESTION: Thank you.
MR SARAN: Let me go to the second question and then I'll come to you. Can we take a second question?
QUESTION: Thanks, Samir and panelists. I'm Kirtbir Chahal. I work for the British Government. Similar question to narrative, but how do you think the Quad can reconcile their strategic interests in and their competing visions for the Indo-Pacific?
And given the Quad are already discussing supply chain resilience and economic resilience more broadly, are Quad members likely to increase market access for each other to further strengthen that economic cooperation and truly move in the same direction?
MR SARAN: Good. So now we will turn to the panelists. First one was to you, ma'am, so over to you, Minister Wong.
FOREIGN MINISTER WONG: Well, I might - I think the nub of the first question goes really to complementarity. I'm trying to not be provoked by the flower arrangement analogy just for the moment. (Laughter.) But it goes to complementarity, and I think if we can start where - perhaps where Jai started, which is think about what we are for, not what we are against. What are we for?
I think where we are very likeminded is we have a view about the attributes of the region we inhabit, and that region - and people will use different words; some say open and inclusive; some might say stable, secure, free of - where sovereignty is respected - but the point is we do have a view about that.
We see the Quad, I would say, as a bit of a lighthouse.
MR SARAN: Thank you.
FOREIGN MINISTER WONG: That was for you.
MR SARAN: Thank you. (Laughter.) Thank you. (Applause.)
FOREIGN MINISTER WONG: But we conceive it as enabling choices, and I think it enables choices in two ways. It enables choices by these countries working for a region with the attributes that enable choices, and it also enables choices by virtue of the practical work that we seek to do together; sometimes through all four in the work streams that Jai described; sometimes collaboration, whether it's in the Pacific, where Australia and Japan or Australia and India might work together in a particular country - this project is a good one for you to do, this is a project we'll do, this is what we've done, but that sort of practical cooperation.
So I don't feel the dissonance that I know some commentators feel and that is underpinning a couple of the questions as between the different architectures, because as an Australian, the region in which we live demands the engagement at multiple levels in multiple contexts. We have - we are the first dialogue partner of ASEAN, so our commitment to ASEAN centrality is historic and real, but it is also geographic. And we do not see our engagement with our friends and partners up here on the stage as doing anything other than enhancing that.
MR SARAN: Thank you. Secretary Blinken, ASEAN centrality. India also has its own neighbors who it has to take into account - their views, their conditions. Is there a time to - just taking this question forward, are we creating enough mechanisms to engage with these countries? We are four big countries in the region, in the periphery, as Teesta mentioned, so what is the mechanism to reach out, to take them along, to sometimes respond to anxieties? You are going to create ripples. And perhaps also the second question of Kirtbir on connectivity and congruence within the Quad.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Well, let me start with coming back to the first question and just adding to what Penny said I think very eloquently. Our proposition is not to say to countries in the region, "You have to choose." Our proposition is to offer a choice, to offer an affirmative alternative. And the more we're able to do that - and do that in practical ways - I think the more cohesion you're going to see throughout the region. And as we've already discussed in a number of very practical areas that actually answer the needs of countries in different parts of the region, that's exactly what the Quad is doing.
Second, to Penny's point - and I think this is very important - we really look at this as variable geometry, which is to say there are different collections of countries - some in formal alliances, some in looser partnerships, some working together on a bilateral basis, some in slightly larger groupings - and the idea really is to make sure that we're fit for purpose for any particular challenge. And so it may be that the Quad can focus on certain things where the particular attributes of our countries brought together make sense. There are other places where different groupings of countries, whether in existing alliances or new partnerships that we form, make the most sense because it addresses the particular interests or particular attributes that those countries can bring to the table.
So I think you have to think of it that way. This is not a rigid thing, and that's I think the mindset that the four of us have, although now maybe it's the five of us. I think, Samir, you're now an honorary member. Maybe - (laughter) - sort of the fifth Beatle, as it were. (Laughter.) So that's the approach that we're taking.
And the other thing I think it's important to understand is this is an ongoing conversation, and one of the strengths that we have is - and we just had a meeting over breakfast, but it's just picking up the conversation that's happening virtually all the time in some fashion among the four of us or among some subset of the four of us. And that also gives it great power because there's tremendous continuity, and what we're working on most now is translating the vision that we brought to this into very concrete, practical things that address very concrete, practical needs of countries throughout the region.
MR SARAN: Would you guys have a WhatsApp group? (Laughter.) Okay, I'm sorry, that was not a question. Minister Hayashi, your responses to ASEAN and —
FOREIGN MINISTER HAYASHI: It all has been said. I don't want to add anything on those comments already made, but is this a group or what? This is a kind of - not a band like the Beatles, the member is fixed and they always play together in 10 years, but this is more like a, more kind of soft group, so that even within the Beatles, Paul McCartney can release the album by solo. (Laughter.) And - so yeah.
So those are the things that could be a band, but everybody is really one harmonization with (inaudible) 50th anniversary for ASEAN. So that information we can share with four of us here so that any idea relating to that could be - I can absorb from those three friends here. So those are the situation we are facing, and it's very nice to talk over these issues surrounding the area, because we have a trust between four of us and a trust for - like I said at the beginning - the same values and same values such as democracy, freedom, and everything. So without worrying about those big conditions, we can really freely talk within this and communicate. So that's the only things that I would like to add.
MR SARAN: Dr. Jaishankar?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: Which part, the Beatles part, or the - (laughter).
MR SARAN: Go ahead. I mean, you always come up with interesting inputs, but the two questions that were posed: ASEAN in our context, perhaps India's own neighbors; and, of course, the whole challenge of offering choices, as Secretary Blinken mentioned. Are we in - are we able to give countries more agency by offering more choices? Or are we still sending them to the same shop?
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: No, I think we do offer more choices. We do collectively offer something different. My own sense over this last - especially after 2017, when I look at individual countries in Southeast Asia, or I've just come back from actually the Pacific Islands - that countries are interested. Many of them by the way are themselves looking at Indo-Pacific as a changing theater, what - how should they define their interests, advance their interests. So my sense is that the interest in the Quad, the enthusiasm for it, the willingness to work with it are growing. But at the end of the day, the Quad is the Quad. The Beatles didn't take - they did keep Pete Best out.
So the serious point is that when we look at what can we do - and I'm, again, using maritime security as the easiest example - that there was a time after 2004 when we all worked together. We understood the value of what today we call the LEMOA, that - the moment we get logistics access to each other that somewhere our ability to operate actually multiplies. And in the initial years, it was difficult.
So when we talk about the changing world, among the changes is we ourselves have changed. Our attitude towards the world has changed. Our understanding and comfort levels with each other has also changed. I do remember a period when, even in our own system - and I would say frankly in each one of our systems - because it was something we hadn't done before, there was that hesitation. And what we are discovering, I mean, really with almost every Quad meeting - we have this kind of rolling conversation, and it's not a WhatsApp group. We have this rolling conversation, and people keep throwing up ideas. Some work; some don't; some are realized more practically, more quickly. So that's a kind of - I would say a very easy, practical arrangement that this has come about.
So I don't - I'm very uncomfortable with sharp definitions: you do this, you don't do this, you are for this, you are against this. I think it's four countries who have decided that by working together that they would naturally advance each other - our own national interests but also do much good for the world.
MR SARAN: So my final question to the panelists as we conclude, you started off responding to the tsunami, a major humanitarian actor at that time. Today, we are facing two or three big crises at this particular moment: food, debt, climate. Is Quad doing enough? What should it be doing better? Let me start with Secretary Blinken and then come down the panel and close with you, Dr. Jaishankar.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: Well, I think it's fair to say on one level we're never doing enough because the demand is extraordinary. I think we're living in a time where there is a greater multiplicity of challenges than at any time at least that I've been engaged in these issues over 30 years - more complicated, more interconnected. So the demand is huge and maybe the demand exceeds even the supply that we can bring. But precisely to the point that Jai was just making, one of the things that we're, I think, getting pretty good at is adapting quickly and looking quickly at what are the challenges that we really have to engage and seeing how we can make the Quad a useful vehicle for doing that.
In each of the areas you described, we are actually working together, taking action, certainly exchanging ideas; and as I said, in many cases trying to turn to those into concrete initiatives. But the demand is great and we have to respond to it.
What's interesting right now in this very moment, you have Quad countries that are also chairing in this moment the G7, the G20, APEC; and that too gives us an ability to amplify —
MR SARAN: To coordinate.
SECRETARY BLINKEN: — and as we're working and coordinating among each other, that also has the benefit of strengthening and making more cohesive the agendas of these other groups.
MR SARAN: Minister Hayashi.
FOREIGN MINISTER HAYASHI: Yeah, like Tony said, demand is always more than we can supply, I think, as a Quad. But like in case of Russia's aggression in Ukraine, right after - that was 24th of February, but in March, we had a summit video conference on Ukraine issues and concurred that we cannot accept this to destroy the international norm such as never change the status quo by force. So like those case shows that we can always communicate and confirm that we - from - we are on the same page for those issues, and then that makes more smooth carrying out of the - every measures we can take. So that's still working in that way too. Yeah.
MR SARAN: Minister Wong.
FOREIGN MINISTER WONG: I think one of the greatest strengths of this grouping is by virtue of what we do together, it enhances our capacity for collaboration. So you - we could - obviously there are existing work streams; they are practical and they are real. As both Tony and Yogi have said, we could always do more in that the need in a world that is increasingly disordered, as your conference explicates, is always greater. But this group does have a capacity to collaborate quite flexibly in addition to what we might have announced and what we'll try and deliver on. And I think for me as a foreign minister in the smallest of the Quad members, that is extremely useful. It - and it is a real strength in this collaboration.
MR SARAN: Dr. Jaishankar, final words.
EXTERNAL AFFAIRS MINISTER JAISHANKAR: Look, I obviously concur with my colleagues, and I think the more we do with each other, then more possibilities open up. To me right now, there are three big issues that the world needs to address and the Quad needs to address - and Quad can address, can make a difference: one, more reliable and resilient supply chains; two, the whole - the digital challenge - trust and transparency when it comes to technologies, how do we deliver more secure digital existence; and third, connectivity. And I do see these as three big issues which in different ways the Quad needs to do together and also do with other countries, and I do expect that to be a greater part of our agenda.
