Prime Minister, welcome to 7:30.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be back in Canberra.
FERGUSON: Well, and you're back with a huge majority. You've got a once in a lifetime opportunity to actually change Australia. We're currently watching the UK government squander the majority that they had. How do you avoid the trap on excessive caution?
PRIME MINISTER: With determination, making sure we are an ambitious government. On 1 July, before Parliament even sat, we of course increased the minimum wage and award wages. We increased Paid Parental Leave by two weeks. We introduced superannuation for the first time ever on Paid Parental Leave. We introduced the rebate, the support for energy batteries, 9200 Australian households have benefited from that already - permanently reducing in their power bills on top of the energy bill relief. And this week we will have three important pieces of legislation, 20 per cent reduction in student debt, the child care reform to give parents confidence that when they leave their little one in a child care centre, they're kept safe. And thirdly, the legislation to protect penalty rates. So, we have an ambitious agenda. No doubt there will be things that arise during the term. But in order to have those medium and longer term objectives, you need to make sure you're looking after people's living standards and making sure you're making those immediate changes to make people's lives better.
FERGUSON: Let me talk to you more about being Prime Minister, particularly this trip that you've just done to China. You've called your lunch with Xi Jinping, in an interview on the way back, you called it 'very personal'. Can you describe what you mean by that?
PRIME MINISTER: That we had a personal discussion over more than an hour.
FERGUSON: What do you mean by personal, though? I know how long it lasted.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we raised a whole range of issues. Because it was personal, I'm not going to go into the detail. But it wasn't so much discussing the affairs of state that we did in our formal bilateral meeting as President of China and Prime Minister of Australia. It was more talking about personal issues, our history, our backgrounds.
FERGUSON: What did you learn about his history and background?
PRIME MINISTER: I learned a fair bit, but again, they're personal. He's, I think, quite a private person. And it's important that you are able to have those conversations, but in order to understand where people are coming from, you've got to know their background and you've got to know some of their views about personal things. And I feel as though we got to know each other much more.
FERGUSON: You said that there were jokes. What were the jokes about?
PRIME MINISTER: The jokes were about all sorts of things, but once again, I'm going to keep that private. But he had showed a real sense of humour and it was a very warm conversation that we had. He, of course, has visited all six states and territories in Australia. Now, most Australians have not done that.
FERGUSON: He knows what he's talking about. Just in talking about where he comes from and his background, I'm sure you know his father's last role in the Communist Party, his task was to oversee the reunification of Taiwan. Did you talk about that?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it was -
FERGUSON: Taiwan wasn't mentioned?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we were talking not so much about heavy policy issues -
FERGUSON: But that's about his father. Very important to him.
PRIME MINISTER: It is no doubt important to him, and he has expressed a clear view about Taiwan and Australia has a clear view as well. We support the status quo when it comes to the Taiwan Straits.
FERGUSON: You described this exchange, that you are saying is a bit unusual. You spent time together, you've had these personal exchanges, you described the exchange as a 'moment of trust'. What do you think that trust is worth?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what it's worth is not coming on the program and talking about the personal issues. For example, that shows a level of engagement there and building personal relations. It's no different from building personal relations around this building or at a Labor party conference, engaging internationally -
FERGUSON: Let me just come in there, because there is a difference between building relationships in this building and building relationships with the President of China.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, of course, but the same principle applies - which is be upfront, be clear about what your views are, be clear about what you can agree on, what you can't, and that is the nature of our relationship. I've said that we will cooperate where we can, disagree where we must, but we'll engage in our national interest, and that's very much what we were doing.
FERGUSON: Can I just come back to that question of trust because I do think it's an unusual word that you've used and I want to know what you think that that word means, apart from having a slightly advanced developed relationship with him. Would he, for example, take a phone call from you in the event of a crisis blowing up over Taiwan to discourage him from invading or blockading Taiwan?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's a hypothetical which I'm not going to go into. But I have said before that anything that he has said to me has been fulfilled. There hasn't been any breaches of personal commitments that he has given to me. That doesn't mean he's agreed with everything that I've put forward, far from it. But I'd rather that than someone on an international level saying, 'yep, we can do all that', and then doing the opposite.
FERGUSON: So, you trust him that when he says something, he's going to keep his word?
PRIME MINISTER: I have no reason to point to any breach that has occurred up to this point.
FERGUSON: That's about the past. What about the future?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, all I can do is talk about the past, because I can just talk about facts rather than - going forward we don't know what it will bring. We know there are significant differences. China and Australia have different political systems, we have different values. We have our alliance with the United States, which is very important. We're a democratic nation and tomorrow will be the expression of that democracy.
FERGUSON: Just before we get to tomorrow, I want to talk about how the Americans will have been watching what happened. Have you got your ambassador, Kevin Rudd, explaining to the White House why you spent so much time with President Xi Jinping when you haven't met Donald Trump? Has he been doing that?
PRIME MINISTER: No. I'm sure that Kevin Rudd has been engaging with the United States in the normal way.
FERGUSON: But did he need to explain that?
PRIME MINISTER: I wouldn't have thought so. I would've thought that Australia engaging with our major trading partner is something that's very sensible. It's about Australian jobs -
FERGUSON: But in the particular way that you described, with trust, with this long meeting, with exchanges, with personal exchanges?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we engage. And I engaged constructively, as I have with the United States over a long period of time. I've visited the United States five times since I've been Prime Minister. I've visited China twice. China is our major trading partner. One in four of Australia's jobs depends upon trade and China is larger - the export, our export trade with China - is worth more than the next four countries combined.
FERGUSON: What fresh efforts are you making now to meet President Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're engaging. I'm available for a meeting. We, of course, will have a range of international forums as well between now and the end of the year - APEC, the G20, the Quad Leaders Meeting, as well as the UN meetings being held in September.
FERGUSON: Are you hearing any concerns from the White House or the Pentagon that President Xi is using your visits as a way to sow discord amongst the allies?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
FERGUSON: Nothing?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
FERGUSON: There's been no questions about the nature of the trip?
PRIME MINISTER: No, not to me.
FERGUSON: Communicated to Kevin Rudd, your ambassador?
PRIME MINISTER: Not to me.
FERGUSON: What will you say, if this meeting with Donald Trump transpires, what will you say to him if he presses the request that we understand were made by Undersecretary of Defence Elbridge Colby, asking -
PRIME MINISTER: Well, this is -
FERGUSON: Let me just explain to people what this is.
PRIME MINISTER: It's a report.
FERGUSON: It's a report of a series of meetings, that hasn't been denied, a report that hasn't been denied, of a series of meetings between defence officials in the US and in Japan and in Australia wanting to know much more clearly what Australia's role would be if the US and China went to war over Taiwan. What would you say if you were pressed on that question?
PRIME MINISTER: I'd say what any Australian Prime Minister has ever said, for a long period of time on a bipartisan basis - we're a sovereign nation. We make decisions depending upon the circumstances of the day, and the government of the day will make those decisions.
FERGUSON: Given the nature of AUKUS and the fact that we're going to be, technically, we're supposed to be receiving Virginia Class submarines, do you understand - do you think that it's a fair question by Elbridge Colby to Australia to be clearer about what it would do in the event of a conflict between China and Taiwan?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, he hasn't made that suggestion to me.
FERGUSON: But he has made it to your officials.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, has he? There's been reports. There's been reports and there's a range of reports. So, one of the things that we're not going to do is to jump at the different reports about issues in the United States on a daily basis. We're not going to do that. What we do is respond in a principled way as to what our position is. And of course, the United States has had a long-term position about strategic ambiguity when it comes to Taiwan and that's a position which Australia has held as well. We've said that we support the status quo.
FERGUSON: Let's move on to domestic matters. You say you want universal child care to be your legacy. How much responsibility does the Government bear for the current crisis given that the Government has pushed the sector to grow very quickly ahead of putting proper standards in place and being sure that those standards were being policed? Do you bear some responsibility?
PRIME MINISTER: Governments have not done well enough across the board. Simple as that. Something that Jason Clare, our Minister, I heard say on this very program.
FERGUSON: And you? What's your view about the degree to which you stood by while the sector grew, in a sense, grew out of control without proper standards?
PRIME MINISTER: Well we need to do better. We need to do better, which is why this week we'll be introducing important legislation allowing the Commonwealth to use the power that we do have, which is essentially funding power, as well as using increased access to make sure that the Commonwealth can play a role there.
FERGUSON: Now, do you share the view, do you have a concern that there is too large a role being played by private companies, by private equity and private companies, in furnishing child care in Australia? Given that 95 per cent of all new centres opening now are privately owned?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, quite clearly, we do have a problem that needs to be addressed. Now, overwhelmingly, child care centres are good in the way that they function and we shouldn't tar the whole sector with what has been serious issues - I mean, it would cause enormous distress. And I understand that as a parent who's had a child in child care, The idea that they've been subject to this abuse is a nightmare -
FERGUSON: Are you worried that this could - you were talking about it in terms of your legacy. Obviously it's something that's very important to you politically. Are you concerned that this crisis mars your legacy?
PRIME MINISTER: You know what I'm worried about? I'm concerned about children. I'm not concerned about legacy. I'm concerned about safety of kids.
FERGUSON: Let's talk about South Australia. Your Environment Minister, Murray Watt, has gone to South Australia to take a look at the algal bloom. Why did it take so long for him to get there?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, South Australia, we have a range of ministers who've been on the ground there - I saw reports of Mark Butler and others. This is primarily been in state waters, but we have received a request from the South Australian government. We committed $14 million of funding today. That's for science and research. It's also for cleanup, it's also for potential mitigation issues as well going forward.
FERGUSON: Is that money, particularly in terms of the science, does that money come too late?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's come appropriately. This is an ecological event that has occurred due to - the advice and report that we've had, and we've had discussions and I've been briefed on it today, is that a range of circumstances have led to this event. Perhaps the increased flooding that occurred and then a whole lot of nutrients going in the water. The fact that the temperature of the water is far higher than what could be expected to the tune of more than two degrees. So, you have this event that has occurred. Events do occur in our environment. What is important is that there be a response, we're responding, giving support to the South Australian government.
FERGUSON: Just briefly on this, Matt Comyn's comment in his submission ahead of the roundtable makes the obvious point that Australian taxation revenue needs to rise, but at the same time, you remain opposed to changes to GST, even including for measures like private health and private education. Just briefly, are you afraid of being labelled anti-aspiration and that's why you won't touch those things?
PRIME MINISTER: Not at all. I'm pro-aspiration, very clearly. I don't hide from that. My mantra is -
FERGUSON: But it won't allow you to consider a change to the GST base to help fund education?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what it won't allow me to do is to go to an election and secure a majority because our government concentrated on cost-of-living measures in our first term - the Coalition opposed all of them, the Greens opposed most of them in the No-alition that was there - and immediately we get elected and we say, we're going to put up the price of everything that you buy. That is not something that's tenable. That's something which would have represented a breach of trust upon which we were elected on May 3rd.
FERGUSON: Just a final question. This is a very significant moment, a historical moment for Labor, this return to Parliament with this thumping majority. At the same time, you've had to consider what to do with Mark Latham's portrait that's hanging here in the Parliament. I understand some language is going to be attached to that portrait. Did you approve the language describing who Mark Latham is and what he now represents for Labor?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Caucus approved it. And Caucus approved it this afternoon, it's language that points out that Mark Latham was expelled from the Labor Party in 2017, never to be allowed to return because his views don't represent the values that the Labor Party holds.
FERGUSON: Did you want to take the picture down yourself?
PRIME MINISTER: I didn't want Mark Latham to be the leader of the Labor Party, and was very clear about that at the time.
FERGUSON: And when you see his picture there now?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's a historical fact. It's a bit like statues and a range of things. History is there. The way to deal with that is to point out the changes that have occurred. Mark Latham has views which I find repulsive across a range of areas. He is someone who I regret ever being elected leader of the Labor Party. That's not something I do in retrospect, that's something I fought very hard on when I was one of the people doing the numbers for Kim Beazley in that ballot. And so, I think that history has proven that judgement to be correct. Mark Latham since, though, has certainly under any circumstances, has gone further and further and further away from any values that represent mainstream Australia.
FERGUSON: Prime Minister, thank you for joining us today, particularly today. Thank you very much.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Sarah.
FERGUSON: Thank you.
