Hon Patrick Gorman MP Radio Interview - ABC Perth Drive 23 October

GARY ADSHEAD, HOST: Liberal Senator Dean Smith, joins me right now in the studio. G'day Dean.

DEAN SMITH, LIBERAL SENATOR FOR WA: Good to be with you again Gary.

ADSHEAD: Now I don't want you to miss Madeleine too much, but we have a very suitable replacement; Patrick Gorman, of course MP for Perth and the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, who's on the line. G'day Patrick.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: G'day Gary, and g'day to your listeners. And g'day to Dean as well.

ADSHEAD: Of course.

SMITH: G'day to you as well Patrick.

ADSHEAD: Hey, just first up. Patrick, you're on the East Coast at the moment. They've got some wild weather. Have you copped a bit of it?

GORMAN: I have. I was literally rushing off my plane so I could join you and your listeners. It was very bumpy, getting out of Melbourne, and equally bumpy coming into Sydney. But I think we are very fortunate to have such a safe aviation industry here in Australia. Because these are the days where the pilots and all the ground staff and everyone else really earn their money.

ADSHEAD: All right. And you folks in politics certainly do some miles. There's no doubt about that. Right, let's get into it. It's been a big week in Washington. Of course, the Prime Minister finally sat down with the President of the United States. Now just to start with, what I'll do is I'll ask Dean this question, because I certainly asked someone yesterday. Malcolm Turnbull has given the Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese, a ten out of ten for the meeting with Donald Trump. What would you give him, Senator Smith?

SMITH: Well, that's very generous on behalf of former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, there's no doubt about that. I think to be fair to Prime Minister Albanese and the Labor team, including Madeleine, we've seen Madeleine in the pictures. I think this is an important team Australia moment. I think it is probably a seven out of ten. There are some important steps. The Coalition thinks that these are first steps. You know, the game is not yet won. I mean, there are important milestones that have been achieved. The AUKUS outcome, I think, is very, very significant. It's very, very important for Western Australia. And now the pressure will be on the National Government and the West Australian Government to make sure that we uphold our end of the bargain, in regards to that. The critical minerals deal is a very important outcome for Western Australia. Real benefits to be realised in the Kimberley and the south of the State. So that is a good outcome. But I think, as Colin Barnett, the former Premier said yesterday, you know, this is the start. There's a lot of work that has to be done between the extraction, the processing of these critical minerals and rare earths. You know, these are still commercial entities. These corporations and mining companies will still have to get a commercial return. I think the response of the Chinese Government in the last few days has really put the necessary pressure and focus on this. There's a lot of work to be done. We are playing catch up. I think everyone would agree with that. On the downside, though, and this is perhaps why I think, you know, Anthony Albanese and the Trade Minister, Don Farrell, do have some explaining to do. Why is it that the British Prime Minister could get a reduction in their tariff imposition, but we didn't get any reduction in tariffs on our steel and aluminium industry? If the reporting is correct, it doesn't look like these tariffs were discussed as part of the negotiations or part of the meeting in Washington. So I think there's some questions that need to be answered there. 200,000 jobs in Australia. So it's no small matter. But to be fair, this is a team Australia moment. It's the beginning of something. We hope that the Government will sort of focus on the work that has to be done, not sort of, you know, relish this moment for the rest of their term. So I think it's fair to say this has been an important and good outcome.

ADSHEAD: So Patrick, there you go, seven out of ten from a Liberal Senator. But from your point of view, I mean, obviously the Labor Government would be breathing a sigh of relief that it went very well. By and large.

GORMAN: Former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull gave the Prime Minister ten out of ten. I noticed a range of other foreign policy analysts have also noted that this was a successful engagement for Australia, in Australia's national interest. That is what the Prime Minister always said it was going to be. I do not think he will mind me saying that, it was also a ten out of ten for my colleague, Madeleine King. It was a great moment to see her there -

ADSHEAD: Just talk about that, Patrick. Behind the scenes, she's been heavily involved in what was put to the US Government, hasn't she Patrick?

GORMAN: She has been doing weeks and weeks of behind the scenes work. And of course, you do not release these things until you know you have got an agreement. But I think we know that Madeleine has been one of those strong voices for the opportunities of the critical minerals industry in Australia, especially here in the west. It was a big piece of the agenda, not the only piece. Of course, they did discuss Australia's view on tariffs. They did discuss a range of other things, including, of course, the AUKUS agreement. I think most West Australians, if they pick up their paper this morning, would have felt pretty pleased to see one of our own there, putting the case forward for Australia. And most importantly, not just putting the case, but getting results.

ADSHEAD: But that tariff issue - was there a big push on to try and do away with the ten per cent tariffs that we've been left with?

GORMAN: It is not the first time that Australia has raised our view about tariffs and what we see as the best way for the global trading system to work. It will not be the last. But I think people had very reasonable expectations, acknowledging the policy positions that the US administration have put forward, and they have been very consistent in the view that they have put out there.

SMITH: But I think it's important to be fair. To be fair though, Patrick, I think an important element of the discussion going forward is whether or not we did, in fact, extract enough out of the multi-billion dollar critical minerals deal in the context of the tariff issue. Or whether it was negotiated completely independently of that. So I think everything that Patrick says is totally fair and reasonable, but I think that tariffs are important consideration for Australia, priority consideration when we think about the fact that we are an export orientated country. Other national leaders have been able to secure tariff reductions in their negotiations with President Trump. It's pleasing to hear Patrick say that this is going to be an ongoing point of discussion between the Prime Minister Albanese, President Trump going forward, and let's hope that over the course of the term, the Government can secure tariff reductions.

ADSHEAD: There's no doubt though, Patrick, is there, that once President Trump gave a ringing endorsement to AUKUS that everyone breathed a sigh of relief, didn't they?

GORMAN: It is good news for Australia, as it is good news for our friends in the United States. And you saw some of that recognition, not just from the comments that we saw coming out of the meeting with the President of the United States. But you saw that coming out of the meeting that was held with the friends of Australia caucus in the US Congress. Now there is some 100 members of that, friends of Australia caucus, and obviously this has been a large part of the discussions getting this AUKUS agreement, which is jobs for Australia, jobs for the United States and giving us the submarine capabilities that Australia needs as an island nation. And so I am really pleased that what we have seen as valuable is being recognised really broadly in the US political system.

ADSHEAD: Alright, I've got Patrick Gorman, the Federal Member for Perth, and of course, Assistant Minister the Prime Minister. I've got Liberal Senator Dean Smith in the studio with us now; not everything went to plan. And of course, Patrick, you've worked long and hard with Kevin Rudd over the years. There was this little interaction:

[Audio clip plays]

TRUMP: Did an Ambassador say something bad? Don't tell me. I don't care. Where is he? Is he still working for you? You said bad?

RUDD: Before I took this position, Mr President.

TRUMP: I don't like you either. I don't. And I probably never will.

[Audio clip ends]

ADSHEAD: Patrick, when you heard that, you're laughing now, but how would Kevin Rudd - seeing that you know him so well - how would he have dealt with that? I mean, he's a pretty proud former politician, now diplomat.

GORMAN: Kevin's also got a great sense of humour and is completely dedicated to the work that he is doing on behalf of Australians as our Ambassador. And I think every report from everyone who was there was that, actually it was a jovial moment. But then also as the President then reportedly said to Kevin Rudd, "all is forgiven." Then following that, Kevin Rudd was sitting in the Oval Office with our Prime Minister and the President of the United States. So I think that tells all of your listeners that there has to be some entertaining moments in the public policy world and in the world of diplomacy, and this was one of them.

ADSHEAD: Particularly when you go to the White House. Now, listen, it's been an interesting last 24-48 hours, though, for the Liberals and how they have dealt with that.

SMITH: I thought I was going to get off the hook.

ADSHEAD: No, you're not. This is Sussan Ley, the leader of the Liberal Party, calling for Kevin Rudd to be stepped aside off the back of that:

[Audio clip plays]

LEY: Of course, the elephant in the room was Kevin Rudd, and to be rebuked by the President, who didn't even seem to know the Ambassador to Australia, and then have your own Prime Minister laughing along, was a bit unfortunate. And I don't think the Ambassador's position is tenable now, and it's taken almost a year to have this meeting, and I don't know that the work has been done to secure, as I said, that commitment to a tariff deal.

[Audio clip ends]

ADSHEAD: So Dean Smith, was Kevin Rudd's position untenable after that interaction with President Trump?

SMITH: I think it's a correct point for Sussan Ley to highlight and for herself and others to critique. It's no surprise. Kevin Rudd has been a polarising figure in Australian politics for a very long time. I do think, in hindsight, and I hope that Kevin Rudd, and perhaps even Patrick Gorman would agree, that it would have been much more prudent for him to have corrected, step back from, apologise for the remarks that he had made about President Trump, which aren't worth repeating now, when they were made, and particularly given that they were made against Donald Trump, and he's now the President.

GORMAN: Okay, I think -

SMITH: I think -

ADSHEAD: Hang on a second Dean, sorry Patrick, go on.

SMITH: I'll just add -

ADSHEAD: No, hang on.

GORMAN: I'm just interested, it was yesterday that we had Sussan Ley making a call that many colleagues then disagreed with on the Liberal side, and it seems to have been walked back today. Was she right yesterday, or was Sussan Ley right today?

SMITH: My view has always been pretty consistent that Kevin Rudd was not the best choice for the role of Ambassador to the United States, and we've had this conversation, Gary, previously on a different West Australian broadcasting show. I do think, I think that the Prime Minister has made a decision today that he's standing by his man. Let's see if that is the correct decision. Only time will tell. I think it's important to focus on the fact that we've had the meeting with Albanese. There are some important and good wins for Australia, and in particular, Western Australia out of this. It was, I think, for people like Patrick and myself, and yourself Gary, who are watching on television, a very entertaining moment, embarrassing -

ADSHEAD: It was hilarious.

SMITH: - perhaps even a touch humiliating for Kevin Rudd. But it's done now, it's there. I think it's worth critiquing. But -

ADSHEAD: Why does Jane Hume, why did she come out so quickly and say - that's one of your colleagues - say that his position was not untenable?

SMITH: It's not particularly remarkable because, as I said in my opening remark, Kevin Rudd is, and has been for a long time, a polarising figure,

ADSHEAD: But you guys have got to be on the same page, otherwise you're arguing amongst yourselves about the Labor Government and issues within the Labor government.

SMITH: It is true that it has taken up a lot of attention today. I don't think it's particularly remarkable. I think Sussan has a right to critique and to highlight the events that happened yesterday. They have overshadowed, there can be no denying, they overshadowed the meeting yesterday, they've overshadowed much of the discussion about the success of the outcomes today. I think it's disappointing. I think it's time for us to move on. And let's -

ADSHEAD: We hear a lot of that. We do hear that, it can't be untenable one day and then suddenly tenable the next because one of her colleagues has come out and said, 'well, actually, it was just Trump being Trump.'

SMITH: I think, for my part and Patrick's,

GORMAN: Gary, can I just -

ADSHEAD: Yeah go on, sorry, Patrick -

SMITH: - the most important task now is to focus on the outcomes and the delivery of those outcomes

ADSHEAD: Go on Patrick, what do you think?

GORMAN: Look, I won't say what I think, I'll say what one of Dean's fellow frontbenchers -

ADSHEAD: Because you're on public radio. Yeah go on.

GORMAN: This is not even a backbencher in the Liberal Party. What we had one of Dean's frontbench colleagues say was "I welcome Susan walking back her comments." That's not someone in the Government. That's how this has been characterised by Dean's own frontbench colleagues. That was Melissa McIntosh today -

SMITH: The test, the test, the test is now -

GORMAN: - recognising that Sussan Ley walked back something she said just 24 hours ago -

SMITH: The test is now on the delivery. The test is now on the delivery, Patrick. We're looking for outcomes in regards to tariff productions. We're looking for Australia and West Australian State Government in particular to make sure that they live up to their end of the bargain in regards to the AUKUS, the delivery of AUKUS. And the critical minerals and rare earths delivery path is not easy. It's not an easy path -

GORMAN: Dean, when the Liberal Party -

SMITH: And the regulatory regime making sure that -

GORMAN: When you are on the front page -

ADSHEAD: Hold on, hold on, hang on, Dean. Go on Patrick.

GORMAN: Dean, it's very nice, I'm pleased to know that it's not just Madeleine that you talk over the whole time. It's nice that you do it to me too. I am honoured. I see it as a mark of respect. But can I just say, when the Liberal Party can get themselves onto the same page on climate policy, on tax policy, or indeed, on foreign policy, then I think you'll be in a position to give free advice to the Government. You are a long way from that, and you know that to be the case, so I hope that you can maybe keep the free advice and sort out some of those issues, that even your leader found themselves caught up in over the last 48 hours.

ADSHEAD: Okay, now, I want to change subject completely here, because I am finding it really interesting the debate around the situation with illicit tobacco at the moment, and I want to know from both of you, in all honesty, has there been a failing of public health policy in driving up the price of cigarettes so much through excise? And allowing a black market, illicit market, to take over, literally take over. According to the latest figures, 60 per cent of cigarette smokers buy black market ciggies, and therefore we're seeing spikes in the number of people smoking in Western Australia. For the first time in 30 years, figures have been released to show more people are smoking. Has there been a failure, Patrick Gorman, and does the Government have the need to reset this?

GORMAN: I am not going to change our policy settings because of criminal activity, which some are asking us to do when it comes to tax policy. What we are doing is taking more action to intercept illegal tobacco. What we've established is, on the weekend, we announced the establishment of the National Disruption Group that's part of our Australian Border Force efforts to stop this illegal tobacco getting into Australia and then being sold in stores. And while I don't know for sure, because I don't purchase from any of those stores, but I have some suspicions about some stores even in my electorate. I am encouraged by what we're also hearing from state and territory Police Ministers about their step-up to combat illegal tobacco because it does erode a tax base, as you say, it's also leading to poor health outcomes. We spend millions of dollars each year from the Commonwealth on anti-tobacco campaigns and on support to help people quit. Those efforts have been successful, but they are now being undermined. I don't want to just give up and stop one of the things that has been successful, which has been our tax policies. What we want to do is intercept that illegal tobacco. And we've had a little bit of bipartisanship from the opposition on this, and I welcome that.

ADSHEAD: What do you think, Dean? I mean, it's clearly a big problem, and I know that you can say 'well, we're not going to be flexible to try and help organised crime'. Actually, you wouldn't help them if you dealt with the issue of the price of cigarettes - legitimate ones - that, of course, governments make money from. Then you wouldn't be helping organised crime?

SMITH: Absolutely correct. So this is an interface between tax policy and health policy. There's no denying that. I think the Labor Premier of South Australia called this out in the last few days, specifically identifying the fact that it was the increase in the tobacco excise that was now driving the illicit tobacco trade because smokers - and I'm not a smoker - smokers will go to purchase tobacco where it is more cheap. So where governments are increasing the tobacco excise - now, there are two reasons why governments increase the tax excise. One is because it, at a certain point, drives better behaviour-

ADSHEAD: Yeah, agree -

SMITH: - drives down smoking, right? So it has a health outcome. But then there is a critical point, a tipping point almost, where it actually starts to drive illegal behaviour, and then starts to support organised crime. And we certainly don't want Western Australia to look like Victoria, where we're seeing violence on the streets. This trade is supporting organised crime. Community safety is now at risk in Victoria. So I think there is a legitimate question for people to be asking, what is the optimal level or the optimal point at which the tobacco excise gets levied to raise revenue for government, also to change people's smoking behaviours to, you know, to encourage people to smoke less. And what is that? What is that tipping point so that we don't get ourselves into a situation now where we have the growth in the illicit tobacco trade, which is fuelling organised crime? Now, it is true that the government - is it true that the federal government announced on the weekend, you know, a more coordinated effort between the federal government and state law enforcement agencies. But, my understanding of the situation is that money was budgeted for that in the March budget this year, but only being delivered in the last few weeks.

ADSHEAD: Patrick, you touched on the fact that you know, you're aware of some of the, in quotes, "convenience stores" where you can buy these under the counter - black market ciggies. Part of the problem is, of course, the need for better coordination, because this state does not have the power right now to shut them down.

GORMAN: And some of those powers sit with states and territories. Obviously, we have responsibility for border controls and customs. I do want to just address the point that Dean just made, that since 2024 our government - the Albanese Labor government - has invested more than $350 million in this fight against illicit tobacco. We recognise that the best way to stop illicit tobacco which is putting cheap cigarettes - and some of these similar supply chains - that are putting cheap vapes in the hands of young Australians in particular, is if we break their market, make it economically unsustainable for them to continue smuggling these goods into Australia. That is the path. And I don't think there is anyone who can credibly argue that we shouldn't pursue that path. It is part of our border security. It is about a part of making sure that we have integrity in our retail markets. And it is also about making sure, as we've sought to do in a range of campaigns including our anti vaping work, that we stop the next generation from accessing these tobacco and vaping products, which we know is so harmful for people's health.

ADSHEAD: Now, I thought I'd finish on this you two. Barnaby Joyce, why not? That's another problem for the coalition, isn't it? Dean.

SMITH: Barnaby Joyce, former Deputy Prime Minister, prominent member of the National Party. Currently a New South Wales House of Representatives -

ADSHEAD: Who is Barnaby Joyce, you mean?

SMITH: Where was your question going?

ADSHEAD: Well, I suppose it's another distraction from the main game, and that's the bloke and his colleagues that we're talking to now.

SMITH: I would say this. That just after five to six months of the re-election of the Albanese Labor government. There is no shortage of things for us to be talking about. You would have seen in Sunday's paper, mortgage stress in Western Australia continues to be very, very high for West Australians. We've got a situation where living standards continue to fall in our country. We've got some important work to do around AUKUS and critical minerals and rare earths. It's important for the opposition to be scrutinising and critiquing the government's performance, holding them to accountable. My answer to this is that there are lots of things for us to be focused on, to be diligent about, and there's lots on which we can be holding the government accountable for.

ADSHEAD: Barnaby Joyce. Patrick Gorman, is this manna from heaven? The fact that you know he's back in the news. He's thinking about heading off to One Nation, we think, but we're not sure.

GORMAN: Well, Gary, your listeners just heard the answer that Dean gave, which is, he can't tell us what's happening in the Coalition. He can't tell us what is behind all of this, where they are going to land -

SMITH: It would be a brave person to -

ADSHEAD: Hang on, you can't talk over Patrick, you know that -

GORMAN: Dean can rattle off a whole list of policy areas where the Coalition also don't have federal policy. But the reality is that this confusion, is confusing for the Australian public. They don't understand why this is happening. They don't understand why it's rolling on day on day. Dean can't explain it, but he also can't stop it. And I think that is really the problem.

ADSHEAD: Dean would like the final say. Go on, this will be good. What is it?

SMITH: The brave person who says they can get into the mind of Barnaby Joyce. There you go.

ADSHEAD: There you go. You probably agree on that one, don't you Patrick?

GORMAN: There you go. Well will end on agreement.

ADSHEAD: Love it. Thank you very much for joining us on this occasion, Patrick.

GORMAN: Thanks Gary

ADSHEAD: Patrick Gorman, the Member for Perth, and the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister. And, of course, Liberal Senator Dean Smith. Thanks for coming on in.

SMITH: Thanks Gary.

ADSHEAD: Good on you.