Anthony Albanese is the Prime Minister of Australia. Good morning, thanks for joining us.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning. Good to be with you, Raf.
RAF EPSTEIN: I will come to fuel, PM. I just wanted to ask first of all though, what did you think when you heard the news yesterday that Dezi Freeman had been shot dead by police? What did you think?
PRIME MINISTER: Good, in a word. This reprehensible criminal who murdered two police officers, Detective Senior Constable Neal Thompson and Senior Constable Vadim De Waart-Hottart. I attended the funerals of both of those police officers and I'll never forget it. I felt honoured to be there at such a solemn and sad farewell for two police officers, one of whom was just weeks away from retirement, another a very young man, their family and friends there at the police academy there in Melbourne. And I will never, I hope, be in a room with so many tough, hardened people who are distraught and emotional. The tears as we walked through with Premier Allan and with the police commissioner there in Melbourne.
RAF EPSTEIN: I appreciate the depth of that.
PRIME MINISTER: It was just so sad. And at the end of this saga, the thing that I remember is the sacrifice of those police officers and the fact that our police put themselves in danger each and every day in order to keep us safe.
RAF EPSTEIN: I appreciate the depth of that emotion, PM. But is it really good when anyone is killed despite their crimes?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, this guy, I just don't have any sympathy for him. That's my position. He always was going to be brought to justice and it's clear that he was always going to fight it out. So, he made the decision to murder these police officers and he made the decision to try to fight it out and to not give himself up or go through a legal process. That's a decision that rests solely with Dezi Freeman. And the mentality of the sovereign citizens, the head of ASIO has made very clear warnings about what this ideology represents. They don't respect any processes. They regard the police and government and our entire society as not being legitimate. And they place themselves outside it and they represent a risk to others. And Dezi Freeman's ideology led him to murder, in cold blood, two police officers.
RAF EPSTEIN: I know you don't talk about what the agencies do, but the Victoria Police want to find out if anybody helped Dezi Freeman move around and evade capture. The AFP and ASIO would almost have to be involved in working out if there's a network, wouldn't they?
PRIME MINISTER: There is, of course, always really strong cooperation between the AFP, between our intelligence agencies and Victoria Police. And whilst not talking about the detail, people can certainly be assured that every level of cooperation will be granted. And the thing about police officers is that when I speak about the family of these officers, the families are more than their wives, partners, children. The family are their fellow police officers. And that's why on those two occasions, they were separate funerals, was so sad for their fellow officers as well.
RAF EPSTEIN: Anthony Albanese is the Prime Minister. Just on petrol, Anwar's call, which I think you heard, I'm getting texts like this as well. 'What extra $19? It's backwards thinking. The reduction brings the price of petrol back, but it's still more than it was before Trump's war on the Middle East.' Anwar says his bill's still higher than it was. Is it going to make a difference?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course it makes a difference, but it doesn't alleviate the impact of the war. We've been upfront about that. We're not immune from what has happened with a global price spike that is having a major impact on the global economy. There's no country that is immune from the impact of this, and the longer the war goes on, the worse the impacts will be. And I understand that people are really, really concerned about this. This is the biggest spike in petrol and diesel prices in history. That's what we're dealing with. So, what we have done is to alleviate some of that to make a difference. I accept that it doesn't make up for the increase in price, but it does of course make a difference. And we listen to people. We know that we've got to do everything that we can to make a difference when it comes to people's cost-of-living.
RAF EPSTEIN: Just on 'everything that we can', PM. Is the fuel excise cut, is that sort of the carrot before the stick? A lot of people worry that fuel rationing comes next. Is the excise cut, is that the carrot before the stick comes?
PRIME MINISTER: What we're doing is working through in a really orderly way. And yesterday's National Cabinet was extremely positive. A four-stage plan where it's stage two at the moment, where supplies have not been disrupted. To be clear. Every ship that was due to arrive in March has arrived. In April, there were six out of 81 ships that were due to arrive that have been cancelled, but they've been more than replaced. There's an additional nine ships coming.
RAF EPSTEIN: I accept the point that the supply is there. People are not clear on when the next stage comes. In fact, the Queensland Premier says it doesn't fill people with confidence. They're his words. It doesn't fill people with confidence when they don't know what triggers the next stage. Can you tell us what would trigger rationing?
PRIME MINISTER: What we can be confident of - well, the plan outlines that where there's extraordinary disruption. But where we're at, the objective here is to stay at stage two. That's the objective. That's why supply is important. That's why the measures that we've done, including Saturday's announcement of doing an unprecedented action that hopefully will pass the Senate today, that passed the House of Representatives yesterday, allowing the Commonwealth to underwrite the purchase of additional fuel supplies going forward.
RAF EPSTEIN: Just on the trigger, there is an ABC story today saying that the Government's preliminary analysis, so I guess that gives you wiggle room, but your preliminary plan is that rationing starts when we get to 10 days of supply. We've got more than 30 at the moment. Is that correct, that rationing might be triggered at 10 days?
PRIME MINISTER: No, that's the ABC going on. You'll see lots of speculation. What we do, National Cabinet will go through all of these processes in an orderly way.
RAF EPSTEIN: So, you haven't decided the trigger yet for rationing? Is that fair to say?
PRIME MINISTER: No. What we've decided is to try and keep supply going, Raf.
RAF EPSTEIN: I hear that, and I think everyone loves the idea that the objective is to keep it where we are, but maybe I can get you to address the Queensland Premier's point. He says people don't have confidence if they don't know the trigger point. Do you agree?
PRIME MINISTER: I agree with what I say, Raf, rather than what anyone else says. And what I say is that our objective is to make sure that we do everything we can to keep supply. And we're doing that, whether it be the release of 20 per cent of the fuel reserves, the action that we've taken to consolidate the arrangements we have with our partners in Singapore and Malaysia and Korea, whether it be the actions that we've taken, as well as I've said, to allow for the purchase of additional supplies. All of that is what we are aiming at doing. We're making sure through the National Fuel Supply Taskforce that we have a coordinator in nationally and one in every state, including from Queensland.
RAF EPSTEIN: Anthony Albanese is the Prime Minister. You're listening to 774 with me, Raf Epstein. PM, just on the broader economy, is it going to be worse than COVID for the economy? Is it like the '90s recession? Where are we at at the moment and what might it become?
PRIME MINISTER: Raf, this is nothing like COVID because you and I will be able to still have a conversation. And one of the things that we are able to have face-to-face, and one of the things we'll be able to have as well, is to keep the economy moving. That's our objective here, and that's why we're doing everything we can to engage constructively across jurisdictions with the private sector. We don't want to move to mandates and COVID-style measures. That's very clear. It's a very different issue that we have here. There is a war going on in the Middle East. That is having an impact on supply, and that is what we need to respond to, and that is what we are responding to.
RAF EPSTEIN: Is it inflationary? If you've got an extra two and a half billion dollars in the system, doesn't that lock in the next rate rise?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what it does is actually reduce the price of something. When you reduce the price of something, that has an impact and obviously -
RAF EPSTEIN: There's also two and a half billion dollars extra in the economy that gets spent. People aren't going to save it, are they? They've got a lot more costs. It'll get spent.
PRIME MINISTER: No. The idea of some of this simplistic analysis that says that somehow this is putting more money into the economy, as your last caller said, because I was on the phone waiting, he's still spending more money than he was before. So, how is there more money in the economy by reducing the cost?
RAF EPSTEIN: Well, I hope all the economics writers file that down and quote you in their next column. If I can just ask you to address a different concern -
PRIME MINISTER: I'm sure they will in the academic world, but the difference between them and me, Raf, is I deal with real people and the real impact that this is having. The real impact that this is having is pressure on families -
RAF EPSTEIN: On those real impacts then, PM, I just want to address one of those pressures. And this may be something that stops us getting to rationing and you having to mandate anything like work from home. There are clearly some people who've got significant costs and they're choosing fuel over food. I just want to play you one of the tradies interviewed and heard on our breakfast program at a petrol station.
INTERVIEWEE [GRAB]: I reckon this would have given me half a tank. So, I've been trying to fill it up all the way with everything going on because I don't want to be left without fuel if anything ever happens, but that's all I have until payday. So, I literally had $61 in my allocated petrol fund, and so that's all I could put in until payday on Wednesday.
RAF EPSTEIN: So, that tradie is limited in that way, Prime Minister. I just wonder if you think there's any room for employers, people who run a site to help workers who have to pay for fuel. Do you think bosses could or should help out in that way?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I think that one of the things we'll see is that in tough times we always see Australians showing the best of their character and we'll see that yet again. I know that there's been an increase, for example, in working from home, there's been an increase in people using public transport. Of course, Victoria has a particular decision that they've made by Premier Allan to assist with that, but people will on a voluntary basis be helping each other out at what are difficult times. That's a good thing.
RAF EPSTEIN: And I'll get to people's calls in the moment, Prime Minister. Final question, a bit of the important one. You've sought more clarity from Donald Trump, and you've expanded on that on 7.30. Today, so far, has the war been worth it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we needed to recognise that the threat of Iran either to gain nuclear weapons was certainly real, but the other issue that was real was Iran's threats and capacity to endanger its neighbours and to, through proxies, Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah, also engage in actions that promoted terrorist activity. And we saw that -
RAF EPSTEIN: So, all these extra costs for your government, every taxpayer, fuel - is it worthwhile? Has it been worthwhile so far?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I'm not an academic. My job is to deal with things as they are. And what I have said is that the objective of regime change, it is just a fact of history that regime change from outside has been shown to not occur too often. Regime change happens from within a nation. I have contempt for the current leadership of Iran. They engage and promote terrorist activity both internationally, but importantly as well, they oppress their own people and persecute and murder their own people. So, I would like to see that regime change. That, of course, will be determined in essence by the people of Iran and certainly I stand in solidarity with them in standing up for their human rights.
RAF EPSTEIN: Thanks for your time this morning. I appreciate it.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Raf.
