Thanks so much for being with us.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, David.
SPEERS: Can I get your reaction, first up, to Israel's decision, the announcement in the last few hours that it will be allowing more aid through airdrops and convoys back into Gaza. Is it enough?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, this is a start, but we need to make sure that people who are innocent, including the young boy, who people will have seen that image of, just breaks your heart. A 1-year-old boy is not a Hamas fighter. And the civilian casualties and death in Gaza is completely unacceptable. It's completely indefensible. My Government has been very consistent in calling for a ceasefire. We have been consistent in calling out the terrorists in Hamas and saying that the hostages should be released. But we have rules of engagement and they are there for a reason. They are there to stop innocent lives being lost, and that is what we have seen.
SPEERS: You mentioned the image of the young boy and I want to show it and, you know, a warning that it is distressing. It is confronting to any viewers who might be concerned, but a lot of people will have seen it. This young boy, there are various images of him, it has been very powerful, it clearly stirred a lot of global reaction. I mean, how have these sort of images made you feel personality?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's not just that image but many of them just break your heart. That's an innocent young boy and for anyone with any sense of humanity, you have to be moved by that. And you have to acknowledge that every innocent life matters - whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. Which is why we need to end the current conflict, but why also we need to move to longer-term solutions. Which, of course, go back to what was envisaged in 1948 - wasn't the creation of one state, it was the creation of two.
SPEERS: And I'll come to that and the developments on that front. You point out that Hamas is yet to release the surviving Israeli hostages, we don't have images of them. You also mentioned, though, that Israel needs to abide by international law. Is Israel complying with international law?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, quite clearly it is a breach of international law to stop food being delivered, which was a decision that Israel made in March and -
SPEERS: So it's breached international law?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm not a lawyer, those things will play out their course. But I tell you what it's a breach of - it's a breach of decent humanity and of morality and everyone can see that. I'm a supporter of Israel and Israel's right to defend itself, but that boy isn't challenging Israel's right to existence, and nor are the many who continue to suffer from the unavailability of food and water. The fact that people have lost their lives queuing to get food and water distributed, not by the UN, but distributed by the joint Israeli-American operation is a tragedy. And what I have said to the Israeli President, Isaac Herzog, is that what sometimes friends have to say to their other friends when they are losing support - Israel is, I think, when you look at internationally the statements that have been made by, including this week more than two dozen nations, combining to call out the lack of aid being allowed into Gaza, is that they need to recognise the need to operate within international law. As I go back to after October 7, the motion, the resolution that was carried by the Parliament on a bipartisan basis, I think, stands quite well.
SPEERS: I understand your point there and understand you're not a lawyer, but it does sound very much this morning like you're saying they have not been abiding by international law.
PRIME MINISTER: Well quite clearly international law says that you can't hold innocent people responsible for what is a conflict. I mean, we have, to be very clear, Hamas' actions on October 7 is where the current atrocities began and Hamas can have no role in a future
state. Hamas are a terrorist organisation who I find, their actions are abhorrent. The fact they have held on to the hostages, they're not only holding Israeli citizens as hostage, but they're holding Palestinians hostage as well effectively through their failure to engage in any constructive way. But Israel, as a democratic state, has a responsibility to ensure that innocent lives are not lost and what we have seen is too many Israeli and Palestinians lives lost, and every life matters.
SPEERS: So the French President, Emmanuel Macron, will now formally recognise a Palestinian state. He says he'll do that at the UN General Assembly in September. Will you do the same?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we will make a decision at an appropriate time. What we won't do, and this is very important, our reasons why. We support two states. So some would argue, well, why don't you just recognise a state? You need to recognise a Palestinian state as part of moving forward. How do you exclude Hamas from any involvement there? How do you ensure that a Palestinian state operates in an appropriate way which does not threaten the existence of Israel? And so we won't do any decision as a gesture. We will do it as a way forward if the circumstances are met.
SPEERS: So at the moment you're not convinced right now that Hamas would not be involved?
PRIME MINISTER: Not so much that, but you'd need guarantees of that, and you need a structure. There's been no elections in the Palestinian Authority for a long period of time.
SPEERS: Does that need to happen before you recognise a Palestinian state?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you need to consider all of the circumstances at any particular time, and you need to make sure that a decision takes forward the operation of two states effectively. So you can see internationally there's been discussions for some time, for example, about the recognition of Israel's right to exist by the Saudis and by other states in the region. And so you need to play a constructive role, Australia is prepared to do that -
SPEERS: It doesn't sound like you're about to do this in September or this year, listening to the preconditions that you're laying out.
PRIME MINISTER: Look, what we will do is we'll make a decision based upon the time. Is the time right now? Are we about to imminently do that? No, we are not.
SPEERS: But at the General Assembly?
PRIME MINISTER: Are we about to do that, no we are not. But we will engage constructively. I want, the United States as well, will have a critical role in this. They have to play a role.
SPEERS: Would you be willing to do this without the United States?
PRIME MINISTER: Australia will always make our decisions as a sovereign state. But the role of the United States is critical. And the United States was playing a role in negotiating with the Saudis and Jordan and states in the region about how you move the Middle East conflict forward.
SPEERS: Those talks have fallen apart thought.
PRIME MINISTER: John Howard, when he was Prime Minister said there can be no solution in the Middle East without solving the Palestinian question. He was right then and anyone who thinks that now is right as well - you need security for the state of Israel, but you need to have the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians for their own state realised as well. That will need security arrangements, it will need arrangements as well about the rebuilding of Gaza and the West Bank. It will need the issue of settlements to resolve as well -
SPEERS: All of that is not going to happen in the next couple of months before the UN Summit, is it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well it's certainly unlikely, but we want to play a constructive role in that. As a middle power, we don't have a great deal of direct influence in the Middle East. That's the truth, notwithstanding some of the debate that's happened here. What we do have, though, is the capacity to engage with our international partners, which is why we have been prepared to be a part of statements with like-minded countries.
SPEERS: Speaking of the United States, and moving on. The Trump Administration is congratulating itself and claiming a win after Australia agreed to allow American beef in, or change the restrictions that had been there. Did this have anything to do with Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: No, this has been a process that has been there for 10 years, the review process. And in 2019, the decision to block US beef imports was lifted, so American beef could come in. The issue was the beef that had come from Canada or Mexico to the United States and then whether it could be traced, whether those arrangements could ensure that our biosecurity was looked after.
SPEERS: Did Donald Trump raise this with you, directly?
PRIME MINISTER: No. Donald Trump though did raise it at the so-called Liberation Day, of course, he raised it publicly - so his views were well-known. And the Americans, before Donald Trump assumed the presidency in January, in December they made some changes and then at the beginning of this year some further changes.
SPEERS: Okay, so Trump didn't raise this with you in a phone call or?
PRIME MINISTER: No, which satisfied the agency that looked at this, the department independently of government, this wasn't a political decision, they looked at it, said they have satisfied the requirements.
SPEERS: Is it just a remarkable coincidence that Trump has publicly said this is a problem, and then this independent process says, 'okay, we're going to change'.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, absolutely. And Donald Trump himself said just a couple of days ago that that was the case. That he wasn't aware that Australia was going to do this.
SPEERS: Nonetheless, the industry here still has concerns, they want more detail. And they want a review, an independent technical review of the decision. Will they get one?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, be very clear, the industry on the morning of the decision, they were consulted beforehand, they knew the decision was coming and on the morning gave an interview with on ABC Radio that backed in the decision.
SPEERS: Then they had a departmental briefing and said, 'look, we still -'.
PRIME MINISTER: No, they had already had a briefing before then -
SPEERS: Nonetheless, they want a review.
PRIME MINISTER: Then the National Party decided to politicise the issue.
SPEERS: So, you think the industry has been led by the National Party?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the National Party decided to politicise the issue. It is, look, these issues are really serious and I certainly understand -
SPEERS: Will there be a review?
PRIME MINISTER: There has been a review. It's taken 10 years.
SPEERS: Okay, but the industry wants a review of that review.
PRIME MINISTER: There has been an independent review. It took 10 years.
SPEERS: And that's it?
PRIME MINISTER: The decision has been made, and it was made independently at arm's length of any political decision.
SPEERS: On social media, I mentioned that story in NewsCorp papers this morning. YouTube, or its owner Google, is threatening to sue the government if YouTube is included in the ban. Has the government made a decision on whether YouTube will be part of the social media ban?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we haven't, but that decision will be made. When we introduced the legislation on a bipartisan basis last December, we gave one year for the process to engage with all of the social media providers, to engage with the community as well. For the e-Safety Commissioner to look at the issues. The e-Safety Commissioner has made clear her view -
SPEERS: She's got concerns about YouTube?
PRIME MINISTER: She has found that up to 4 in 10 of young people under the age of 16 who've engaged with YouTube have been harmed by that engagement - so, her recommendation is very clear. But the Minister will make these assessments and we'll make these assessments to be clear, David, independent of any of these threats that are made by the social media companies. And I say to them that social media has a social responsibility. There is no doubt that young people are being impacted adversely in their mental health by some of the engagement with social media and that is why the government has acted. I'll be meeting with parents again this week of people who've been through tragedy, frankly. And the government has a responsibility to act, and across the Parliament we have acted. And one of the things that concerns some of the social media companies is that we are leading the world and I'm proud that we're prepared to stand these people up effectively from their threats.
SPEERS: They are worried about others following Australia. Look a few other pieces of legislation that I just want to get to. You introduced a bill or the government introduced a bill during the first week of Parliament to improve standards in child care after those shocking allegations that surfaced in Victoria. Your Education Minister, Jason Clare says part of the problem here is that money talks and unfortunately some organisations have put profit ahead of the safety of our children. Do you have a problem with for-profit providers in childcare?
PRIME MINISTER: No, as a general principle, but Jason's right. I mean quite clearly there have been cutting of corners and these problems have arisen by and large in for-profit rather not-for-profit child care providers. This is a system that's been established, it's hard to start again from zero, but what the government is doing is taking strong action. This legislation will allow for the government, Commonwealth, to use the power that we have, which is essentially to cut funding from centres that don't comply. We want standards to be lifted across the board and I think that's what parents expect.
SPEERS: Now on HECS, you've introduced the legislation to, it's a one off reduction in HECS debt. For those who are just starting out with their university degree though it doesn't particularly help them. When are you going to get around to fixing the Job Ready Graduate Scheme that the Morrison Government put in place that really jacked up the cost of a lot of degrees?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, to be clear, this does help students who are beginning their course because we haven't just reduced 20 per cent reduction in debt, what we've done is change the thresholds. We've made it more progressive so that you have to earn a higher amount before you have to pay more money back. So, we've adjusted a range of those measures.
SPEERS: What about the Job Ready Graduates Scheme? When does that get changed?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're dealing with one thing at a time, David. And this week what we have done is fulfil the commitments that we gave as the first piece of legislation. And it will be the first piece of legislation that passes the Parliament in the coming week. We'll make sure that it goes through both the House of Reps and the Senate and it will save three million Australians, an average of $5500 each.
SPEERS: And what's coming up in the coming week of Parliament in terms of new legislation?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we want to focus very much on cost of living - that was the basis upon which we were elected. In the last term, we had a range of measures and the Coalition opposed all of them. This term we've already had all the changes on July 1 - the increase in the minimum wage, the changes that we have made in energy bill relief, the cheaper batteries, the range of measures. Now, this week we will have cheaper medicines. Cutting back the cost of medicines to just $25. That is the same price they were back in 2004. And importantly as well, we have frozen the cost of medicines to $7.70 for the rest of this decade.
SPEERS: All of these things do cost money, and you've got your summit coming up next month to try and improve economic growth, productivity and make the budget more sustainable. Treasury's advice to the government, as we now know, is that both additional revenue and spending reductions are needed to fix the budget. Is Treasury right? Do we need to increase the tax take?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we need to do is to make sure that our tax system is fair and we will always do that.
SPEERS: But the question is, is Treasury right in saying you need to both increase tax and cut spending?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we need to do is to get fiscal policy right. And my Government -
SPEERS: What does that mean? Does it mean increase the tax take?
PRIME MINISTER: What it means is what we've done, which is we produced two budget surpluses and we've reduced the budget deficit going forward compared with what it was anticipated to be before we were elected.
SPEERS: But right now, does the tax take need to go up as Treasury says?
PRIME MINISTER: What we will do is outline our policies that we have. Treasury, of course, will put forward advice to government from time to time - that's not government policy. I want departments to be able to put forward advice. We'll continue to examine the budget, fiscal position, and we'll continue to be responsible. Our starting point is the positions that we took to the election.
SPEERS: Yeah, but surely you have an idea, PM, as to when you look at the budget, whether you agree that tax needs to go up and spending needs to go down to fix it?
PRIME MINISTER: What I agree to is what we do in the Expenditure Review Committee, that's already begun meeting, each and every time, which is to examine each policy to make sure that there's value for money. To make sure that the way that we grow the economy as well is really important, David. So, making sure that the measures that we put in place produce revenue. And that is why, for example, we've got the Future Made in Australia agenda is about how do we get that economic growth in the future? And what the Productivity Summit is about is identifying ways, including Future Made in Australia - How do we fix housing? How do we fix these issues in a way that is fiscally responsible?
SPEERS: Just a final one on the superannuation tax change that you took to the election. When is that going to be introduced? Is there some hold up in this? Are you thinking about tweaking it or is it locked in?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what we've done, very clearly, in the first fortnight is concentrate on measures that make a difference to people's money in their pocket. So, we make no apology for that.
SPEERS: So, when's the super one coming?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it will come in time -
SPEERS: Is it locked in or are you going to agree to change it a little?
PRIME MINISTER: The first fortnight - well, we have our position and of course we'll deal with the Senate as we tried to last time. But what we have done is make sure that those measures that we've put in place, whether it be protecting penalty rates, this week cheaper medicines, the reduction in HECS debt, are all about delivering on our commitments to make a difference to people's cost of living and to fulfil the promises that we've took to the election. As well as get through our first speeches, they were fantastic last week. It was a real source of pride that the Parliament now represents, on our side at least, the diversity that is there in Australia.
SPEERS: Alright, Prime Minister, thanks so much for joining us this morning.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, David.
