Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister for Mental Health and Suicide Prevention
Steve Price: David Coleman is the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister for Mental Health and Suicide Prevention. There is a really interesting debate going on in this country of trying to get social media companies to take steps to verify the age of someone who's using their platforms. The Assistant Minister is on the line. Good to talk to you.
David Coleman: Good morning Steve.
Steve Price: Are they going to listen?
David Coleman: They will have to Steve, because there's very serious fines in this legislation, up to 10 per cent of their entire Australian revenue if they don't follow the law. There's basically two key things in it. First is they have to act in the best interests of children, really important point because obviously there are many occasions on which they don't do that now. And the second point is if a kid is under 16, they're going to have to get parental consent in order to open an account or provide any content to that child, and again if they don't do that, very substantial fines. So that's necessary because we know we can't trust social media to act in the best interests of kids, and that's why we're taking action to force them to do so.
Steve Price: What sort of comment or what sort of content, I should say, has you most concerned?
David Coleman: Very concerned about issues around things like eating disorders Steve. There are, unfortunately, a lot of, you know, young girls out there who have issues around body image and so on. And sometimes these platforms will send a child with concerns about those issues in the direction of content that's about extreme dieting or eating disorders and so on. There's also situations where people get sent to content that's about self-harm or other very distressing sort of material. So that's very plainly not in the best interests of the child. These are very sophisticated companies, some of the largest companies in the world, and when it comes to using their data to sell ads, they're super sophisticated and super smart. And what we're saying is, well they need to be just as sophisticated and just as smart in protecting kids. And the sort of, the approach they've taken in the past of saying: 'oh well, it's, you know we try, but it's very difficult', well those days are over and they will need to act in the best interests of kids in the future.
Steve Price: Is your main worry the targeted advertising? r
David Coleman: Yeah, well basically what happens Steve is these social media platforms, they pick up on the interest that somebody shows. So for instance, if someone's a Carlton supporter and lives in Melbourne, whatever other characteristics they have, they will serve ads, serve content related to that. So sometimes it's advertising, but sometimes it might be linking a child to another provider of content or another person through that platform, and that can be very dangerous for kids. And, you know, as I said, in the past the platforms have said: 'Oh, well, it's all very complicated.' But recently, Facebook has said that they've identified 600,000 underage kids on Instagram and closed their account. Now that's good until you realise that that only represents 0.02 percent of Facebook's 2.8 billion accounts. So there's obviously a lot more underage kids on the platforms than that, and they're going to have to take action or otherwise the information commissioner is going to have very serious powers to crack down on them.
Steve Price: You're a lot younger than me and you're much more technically savvy, I'm sure. But the kids we're talking about, the teenagers are even more savvy than you. Will there not be ways for them to get around it?
David Coleman: It will be very difficult because if they're based in Australia than the platforms are subject to the laws of Australia. I mean, you know, it's the sovereign state of Australia, not the sovereign state of TikTok. And we are very comfortable in asserting that sovereignty. It doesn't matter where these companies are physically based or what technology they use, if they want to operate in Australia, if they want to make money out of Australia by selling ads to Australians, they are going to have to follow the law of Australia and if they don't, very serious consequences. And the obligation is on the platforms, they're the ones who will face the fines. And I think it's important for parents, Steve, because a lot of parents really struggle with this issue. And in the future, parents will know that if a social media company is setting up an account for their child under 16, that's actually against the law if they haven't got their parental consent, in the future. And that's going to be a really powerful tool for parents to know that, putting some of the power back in their hands. And it's not the case that we can just sort of go along as things have been in the past with social media because there are real concerns about its impact on kids. And it's important that we take this further action in addition to the many other things we've done through the Online Safety Act and other areas.
Steve Price: You're getting bipartisan support on this, or is there objection to it from some in Labour and the Greens?
David Coleman: Well look it's early days, we just released it a week ago, it's out for consultation at the moment over the next few weeks. And, you know, I suspect Steve that the platforms and social media companies will come back and say: 'oh, you know, it's all very difficult for us, you shouldn't do this, etc.' I would certainly hope that there will be bipartisan support. What we intend to do is introduce this legislation, seek to pass it through the Parliament early next year. And yes, certainly will hope for bipartisan support when that happens. Because you know, this isn't a partisan issue, this is an issue that's about protecting kids, it's about taking action against these social media companies. And because those fines are up to 10 percent of their revenue, for some of these companies that's tens of millions of dollars. So this is not something that they'll be able to turn a blind eye to because the consequences are very serious, as they should be, because this is a really serious issue.
Steve Price: Is there an overseas model you've been able to model this on?
David Coleman: The UK has done some similar activities, so since the first of September they've had a responsibility on the platforms to act in the best interests of children. It's a little different to ours because it specifies particular things the platforms should do, whereas we're taking a broader approach that everything has to be in their best interests. But the UK is probably the closest analogy to what we're doing. But what we're doing is world leading in terms of the best interests duty across the board and the requirement to verify age and get parental consent for kids under 16. Those are world leading steps. There's a lot of talk in this area around the world at the moment and a lot happening, but what we're doing is world leading and we think that that's the right thing to do because this is a very serious issue.
Steve Price: So to summarise, if someone wants to set up an Instagram account, a Twitter account, TikTok account, Facebook account and they're under the age of 16, they'll need a parental tick to do that.
David Coleman: Correct.
Steve Price: If the parent gives that parental tick, the parents then it's up to them. It's their responsibility is it not, to then keep an eye on what content the younger teenagers are downloading?
David Coleman: Yeah, it's up to the parents to decide whether...
Steve Price: Because you're not trying to be parent?
David Coleman: No no, it's up to the parent to decide whether the child has the account or not. But the requirement for the platforms to act in the best interests of kids will be there as well. So let's take the example of a 14 year old and the parent says, I'm happy for you to have an account, that's absolutely a decision for the parent. But what will also be the case is that in the future, that platform will have an obligation to act in the best interests of the child, and if the platform directs that child to content that's about self-harm or extreme dieting or eating disorder content, that sort of thing - I mean, that is very, very clearly not in the best interests of the child and that will be against the law.
Steve Price: And who monitors that?
David Coleman: So the information commissioner, so they're an Australian government appointee. And so this legislation comes in under the Privacy Act of the privacy provisions. So I've been working very closely with Michaelia Cash on this, and the information commissioner will be given very clear powers under this legislation to enforce it. That includes getting all the material and documents the commissioner needs from the companies themselves. So internal emails, internal reports, any internal documentation that the commissioner needs to do their job. And if the commissioner feels that either the platforms haven't acted in the best interest of children or they haven't taken all reasonable steps to verify age and get consent, then they'll be in breach of the law and the commissioner can seek those very serious fines of up to 10 per cent of revenue.
Steve Price: Good luck with it. We'll keep an eye on it as it passes through the Parliament. Thanks for talking to us.
David Coleman: Thanks Steve.
Steve Price: David Coleman there, the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister for Mental Health and Suicide Prevention.
