Transcript: Public Health Association of Australia CEO, Adjunct Professor Terry Slevin, on ABC Canberra Afternoons, Tues 11 August
Subject: Interview with Terry Slevin on the government's lacklustre response to gambling reforms
ALICE MATTHEWS: Well Terry Slevin is the CEO of the Public Health Association of Australia. Terry, thank you so much for being here.
TERRY SLEVIN: Thanks Alice.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Maybe it's best to start with what's at stake here Terry.
TERRY SLEVIN: At stake is to some extent the heart and soul of Australia. I mean it might sound an overstatement, but you know when we're in the position of being by far and away the biggest losers when it comes to gambling of any country on the planet on a per capita basis.
The gambling industry has clearly gone out of control in this country. There isn't a meaningful regulator. And the Murphy Report, if we want to go back to what it is that people actually expect, it was a unanimous agreement of members across the Parliament and the lower house that brought that report down in 2023. And banning of all advertising was part of the recommendations of that Murphy Report. And this legislation really genuinely is a very long way away from that. Yes, there's some very, very modest step forwards, but that is the very, very best you could assess in terms of what's on the table. And at the moment, Alice, it's unclear what might be being negotiated. And the government can negotiate either with the Greens in one direction or with the Coalition in the other direction, if you think about the political spectrum. But the concern remains that those of us who have been pushing for even just getting to the point of the strong recommendations of the Murphy report don't get involved in those discussions or aren't being at the moment.
We don't know what genuinely is on the table and the details of the amendments to the existing bill look like. We're concerned that we think the gambling industry will be in that room and being involved in those discussions and that's the kind of power that comes with the kind of influence that they bring. You know we're talking about expenditure of about $250 billion a year on gambling in Australia. People losing about $32 billion a year. There's about $9 billion going into various government coffers. And of course, the power that comes with the influence on the commercial media sector, also the professional sports sector, means that the gambling industry get very, very close to decision making in government. And what we saw at the Senate inquiry last week was denialism, "it's not our fault". They call what everybody sees as the inducements that are a disgrace, "they're just promotions", they tell us. And if there's any law broken, well, report it to the authorities. Unfortunately, there isn't a meaningful authority when it comes to regulating the gambling industry in any proper and strong manner.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Yeah, let's talk about inducements because some quite shocking ones I guess came out during the inquiry and we learned today that this is the new element that Prime Minister is considering. You mentioned the Murphy Report. It said it recommended prohibiting all online gambling inducements and inducement advertising and to do it without delay. Do you think we should be allowed to entice people to gamble? Should we be allowed to attract people to gamble in that kind of way?
TERRY SLEVIN: None of us, when you use the word we Alice is doing, it is the gambling industry are making billions of dollars.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Well, yes, not we. Should they?
TERRY SLEVIN: It's not you and me, Alice.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Should it be allowed?
TERRY SLEVIN: No one should be allowed to. When you're talking about people who clearly have enormous gambling problems and lose 10s, hundreds of thousands of dollars, in some case millions of dollars. and they become the VIPs and the industry put on special managers to duchess to induce, to encourage, to support, to continue those people putting money on the table that the industry is mopping up. And they say, "well, if they're illegal", you know, obviously offering illicit drugs, that's illegal regardless of any other circumstance. Offering escort services and the like is clearly not something that any code is going to sanction. But the reality is that's what's happening. So the industry has clearly been breaching their own standards according to the way they express them. But the problem is when they say, "report it to authorities", who? Who do we report it to when we see the — particularly online gambling sector using an ineffectual regime based in the Northern Territory of eight part-time commissioners and two part-time staff? That's farcical when it comes to trying to properly regulate an industry which has billions and billions and billions of dollars.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Terry Slevin is the CEO of the Public Health Association of Australia. On afternoons today, Jen the OG on 0467 922 666 says, I'm sick of the balance argument. It seems to me that the Albanese government is about not annoying the gambling industry while pretending to protect people. Lobbyists do not belong anywhere in Canberra, says Jen. That's an interesting point to draw out, Terry Slevin. Is there a balance that has to happen here to protect the right of somebody to have a punt?
TERRY SLEVIN: I don't see that as being a meaningful part of the discussion, Alice, because nobody in this discussion who's advocating on behalf of control of the industry has suggested for a moment that we ban gambling. I've not heard anybody seriously propose that. When I spoke to the Senate Inquiry last Monday, I made that point very, very clear. Creating this false... kind of narratives that we're trying to ban gambling. It's rubbish. It's simply not true. No one has said it. And government should stop saying that because it's simply not a credible claim. What we're talking about is reasonable, sensible controls that exist in many, many countries around the world. That's why we're the worst, because we have the worst controls in the industry.
The industry is going to continue doing whatever it can get away with to make more and more money. That's kind of what you would expect them to do. So only government can put the brakes on and the question is it going to be a light tap of the brake or is it going to be pretty heavily slowing down what is an industry that's out of control? And everybody that I talk to, including many members of Parliament, including many even the government side, want a far more heavy foot on that brake and we'll see what those amendments look like and see whether that's a meaningful brake on this industry because they're going to be in Parliament House right now arguing for the lightest of taps on that brake.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Well Labor has called this the hardest crackdown. No one has done more when it comes to gambling reform in Australia. Is it because the bar has been so low?
TERRY SLEVIN: Yes, the bar has been preposterously low. I mean it's been farcical, the extent to which they've been able to get away with murder, even to the point where a couple of years ago the ads were so ubiquitous. They were so common. The industry themselves were getting embarrassed about the extent to which they were dominating the advertising world and they backed off a little bit only because of that notion that "if we don't do it ourselves, government will be forced to regulate us". And so a couple of years ago we saw a downturn the amount of money they were putting into advertising. But it's still at a rate that's off the charts and that no one finds acceptable.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Another listener says nobody's talking about the elephant in the room. The revenue from gambling taxes props the government up.
TERRY SLEVIN: That's probably more the extent in state and territory, some state and territory governments, not all, and it quite varies from state to state. New South Wales, long history of reliance upon poker machine revenue. Victoria came into that category when Jeff Kennett was Premier and Jeff Kennett's gone on the record saying it's the biggest mistake of his Premiership. Western Australia doesn't have poker machines except for just in their casino. So they've demonstrated that it's not essential. So of the between $9 and $10 billion of tax that goes to government, a lot of it is at state government level. And that's what creates pressure in terms of states and territories regulating the pokies. But the online stuff is absolutely the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government. And that's a growing sector and one that desperately and urgently needs controls put in place, and that's what's at stake at the moment.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Yes, and I guess whether this gambling advertising bill goes ahead addressing inducements or not, is it better than nothing?
TERRY SLEVIN: [laughs] Yeah, I've heard various views. The starting point, Alice, is that we're having this debate. There's legislation on the table. We're looking at ways in which we can control this. In my experience of 40-plus years in public health is that there's a bit of relentless incrementalism in the things we do in the public health world. But we really would like to start with a couple of meaningful steps forward, not a tiny, half-dolly step.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Point taken, Terry Slevin. Thank you so much for being here.
TERRY SLEVIN: Good on you Alice, cheers.
ALICE MATTHEWS: Terry Slevin there from the Public Health Association of Australia. He'll be watching closely as discussions develop over the federal government's gambling advertising bill. This is 666 ABC Canberra. You're tuned into afternoons.
