BCA Chief Bran Black Talks to ABC 7.30's Ferguson

E&OE

Sarah Ferguson, 7.30 Host: Bran Black, welcome to 7.30.

Bran Black, Chief Executive: Thank you so much for having me.

Sarah: You've just emerged from a long afternoon and a big discussion about AI. That conversation started with, the sides, and by that, I mean the unions and yourselves being a long way apart. How did it go?

Bran: Well, there are points where we disagree with the union movement, and there are points where we agree. And I think the positive thing about the conversation we've just had is that there are some points of agreement right around the room.

In the first instance, I think it's important to note that one way or the other, Australia is going to have to move on developing the skillsets required to take advantage of this enormous opportunity. So that means that there's work for employers to do, that means there's work for government to do, that means there's work for universities to do, and so on.

The second point that I think is really important is that we see that there is an opportunity for us to have a national plan. If you look at other countries, like Singapore, which has really moved ahead in this regard, in fact, they're onto their second edition of a national plan. They are trying to pursue the opportunity. In their plan, they describe it as a necessity rather than an opportunity, we need to see it in the same way.

Sarah: Let me ask you about the workers' side of the equation, because we know what the ACTU was asking for was, in a sense, an effective veto for workers to have over the introduction of AI into workforces. Talk to me about that discussion because you're very opposed to that.

Bran: Well, the way we see it, you've got to make evidence-based policy in terms of how you proceed with anything, and particularly in terms of a major issue such as artificial intelligence. What I see when I talk to my members, and frankly, when you review what's happening around the world, is that we are seeing that there are changes to the way in which people are doing their jobs, but AI is affecting their roles, it's not replacing their roles.

Now, of course, there are going to be some instances where that happens, but our point is, we think that there is still a sufficient basis within our existing laws and regulations to take us through the types of issues that we see emerging.

So, as a first point, do a gap analysis. Are there issues that really require legislative intervention? If there's not, don't do it, but if we do need to move forward, we would say, let's look very carefully at the specific powers that regulators need, and if they do need additional powers, then let's plug those specific gaps, if you will.

Sarah: So who protects workers in a circumstance where AI is being introduced into a workplace and it's going to affect the workforce, why shouldn't workers have a say in how that gets rolled out? What's your position?

Bran: Well, at the moment, there is already a mechanism for that to happen. So under the Fair Work Act, in circumstances where there are significant changes that are contemplated with respect to a workforce, there are already rights with respect and indeed obligations, with respect to consultation.

So we say that is a great example of where there is already scope to rely upon existing laws and processes. But I think there's an important point that requires a bit of a step back, and that is that what we are concerned about is that if we rush to regulate now, if we rush to regulate too early, then we will miss the opportunity associated with the technology, and if we do that perversely, we may see the type of outcome that we're trying to prevent, and that is opportunities moving overseas and jobs being lost. We don't want to be in that situation.

Sarah: Does a does a workplace have an obligation to offer workers retraining, or can they just bring in different workers to do new jobs?

Bran: Now, at the moment, again, going back to the Fair Work Act, there are already requirements in place in terms of consulting with employees, engaging them, with respect to redeployment opportunities within businesses and so forth. And of course, that extends to redundancy provisions in circumstances where there are no available roles within organisations.

But I do stress that point, there are already provisions in place, and we're not seeing the type of broad-scale workforce impacts associated with AI that some commentators have speculated upon, and I really stress that point, we shouldn't be regulating, we shouldn't be legislating based on fear. We should be regulating and legislating based on fact and what we see on the ground.

There may come a point in time, there may come a point in time where we do need to take additional steps, but we haven't seen the evidence base emerge just yet.

Sarah: On housing, that debate around that table today, did you make progress on how to speed up the construction of housing? We know the government's target looks like it's out of reach. Did you get anywhere today?

Bran: Well, I think we made some useful progress. In the first instance, there was, I think, pretty broad agreement that we need to take a pause with respect to the National Construction Code. And that's important because, just to give an example, perhaps a little bit of colour, one of the great graphics that the productivity Commissioner produced today showed that the average apartment build takes seven years plus, and yet the Construction Code is updated every three years.

So, potentially, you've got a situation where a single development is subject to three different changes of code, and that's assuming the developer isn't doing multiple different developments and having to deal with all these different changes across multiple areas. So that was one area where I thought that there was some pretty good agreement.

Equally, I think we also saw, in terms of the federal approval system and the EPBC, that there is scope for us to broadly reach agreement around what the structure of reform looks like. And that is a good starting point, it is a really important starting point. The devil is in the detail, and there are lots of issues that are still to be finalised, but if you can agree upon the structure, which is broadly in line with the recommendations of Graeme Samuel, that's an excellent spot.

Sarah: Bran Black, you've had a you've had a long couple of days, but I'm just going to ask you this. We ran a story this evening about people having AI bots or AI characters as their friends. Would you like to have an AI character as a friend?

Bran: Sometimes with my role, I think that if I had an AI bot as a friend, it would help me do a little bit more during the day. So perhaps in due course that will be something that will prove very useful.

Sarah: Leave it with us. We'll come up with something. Bran Black. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Bran: Thanks for having me.