Subjects: Combatting Antisemitism, Hate and Extremism Legislation.
SALLY SARA, HOST: Michelle Rowland, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.
MICHELLE ROWLAND, ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Good morning.
SARA: What's the situation this morning? Have you struck a deal with the Coalition to pass your hate law reforms?
ROWLAND: We've had constructive engagement with the opposition which has come a long way, certainly in the last 48 hours. We have done that engagement and it certainly has come to a position where we will be introducing a bill today. I look forward to the support across the Parliament in order to create a safer, more unified Australia.
SARA: So, you have struck an agreement?
ROWLAND: I won't pre-empt anything here. I'll also point out, just to clarify, there is actually no bill before the Parliament right now. It is an exposure draft and until such time as that bill is presented and that bill has been passed, I won't pre-empt any of that. I will note that there has been constructive engagement, particularly in the last 24 hours.
SARA: So, will negotiations and discussions be continuing this morning?
ROWLAND: I expect they will, and I look forward, as I said, to the Parliament as a whole coming together. I think all of your listeners, all Australians, would expect that we as lawmakers would come to this place and leave it in a better position in terms of the laws that we have at our disposal to undertake that task of keeping Australians safe, in the wake of what has been the worst terrorist attack of antisemitic hate that we have seen in our country's history.
SARA: So, will legislation be introduced this morning or today to the Parliament?
ROWLAND: Yes.
SARA: It will be this morning?
ROWLAND: Yes, it will.
SARA: What issues have been the sticking points?
ROWLAND: Well, again, I don't want to pre-empt any of those conversations and particularly since they have been undertaken in good faith. But as you would have seen already reported in the media, some of those issues go around the listing of hate groups and that framework. It is a fact that the opposition has sought a number of amendments to this area. I will point out that the removal of the serious vilification provisions do mean that these remaining provisions in the prohibited hate groups section do need to do a lot of work. So, we have in a short period of time taken good advice, and we had taken advice prior to that as well. We have been drafting with urgency and care to ensure that these provisions are effective, but also that we meaningfully engage with the opposition on the aspects that they have been raising.
SARA: So, in some ways, will those provisions do the same job as those vilification provisions that will no longer be included?
ROWLAND: That is what we are seeking to do. However, it is a fact, again, as has been reported in the media that those provisions will now need to do a lot of different work, given we won't have those vilification provisions in there. I should also just point out for your listeners that we have taken the best constitutional advice and the best advice in relation to the Crimes Act and the Criminal Code in undertaking this task. We know that some of the hate groups who will be subject potentially to this legislation are ones that are highly lawyered up, they are litigious, they are also well financed and in some cases, have international perspectives as well. The government stands ready in the event that these laws and the implementation are challenged. The Commonwealth will vigorously defend any such challenge.
SARA: On the issue of banning so-called hate groups, Nationals Senator Matt Canavan was speaking to me earlier this morning. He's worried that this section is too broad on what is deemed as harmful. Let's take a listen.
CLIP: What does economic harm mean in this context? Does that mean that a group that's calling for the boycott of Israeli products can be classified as a hate group? What is the word economic doing there? Likewise, psychological harm? What is the limit of that? Does it mean that people who have hurt feelings over some groups making particularly political comments can be banned in our democratic society? Real problems with that.
SARA: What do you think of the points that Matt Canavan's raising there?
ROWLAND: Firstly, I disagree with his assertions. This is a provision that already reflects the listing regime that exists for terrorist organisations and state sponsors of terror as we legislated last year. So, this is not an entirely novel area of law that is being transposed here. What we do need to do, because we know that some of these hate groups have skirted deliberately just below the threshold for those existing provisions to be enlivened, that we need to lower that threshold. Also, I will point out that the drafting of these provisions was done in close consultation with Jewish representatives. We heard in the condolence motions yesterday about the kind of harm that is inflicted by antisemitism on Jewish Australians. They include a variety of facets. So, I disagree with Senator Canavan's assertions and I would also make the point that listings are disallowable instruments. They are actually capable of review. We have also enhanced these provisions by making sure that it's informed by appropriate intelligence and also the legal implications of listing.
SARA: The Prime Minister says he won't revisit this if the legislation doesn't pass today. If these laws are so important in responding to the rising threat of antisemitism, why wouldn't you continue to work with the Parliament this year to enact what you can?
ROWLAND: Well, we are enacting what we can and we are doing this right now. We have the Parliament that was democratically elected by the Australian people last year and that is the Parliament that we will work and that is what we are doing right now.
SARA: There are some in your party who want to see vilification laws expanded, but the PM has ruled that out. How do you respond to those concerns?
ROWLAND: The frustration is understandable not only amongst colleagues, but amongst the Australian community and particularly amongst Jewish Australians. As Peter Wertheim said yesterday, he expressed his disappointment and also concern about the message that this sends. But the reality is this: it became clear that the opposition would not support these vilification provisions and the Prime Minister said we need to come together for the sake of unity and also to get done what we can get done. We will still have, I should make sure your listeners understand if these proposed laws are passed today, we will have a far tougher and indeed the most comprehensive regime for dealing with hate that this country has seen. It builds on the work that we as a government did last term in this area as well. The other point that I'll make is that there are a number of states that have vilification provisions already, including Western Australia and NSW. I note that the ACT is looking at doing that as well. As Attorney-General, I chair the Standing Council of Attorneys-General. This is one of the highest priorities on our agenda, we will continue to focus on what we can do nationally, even if there's no Commonwealth law dealing with this in order to keep Australians safe.
SARA: Just briefly, you're listening to Radio National Breakfast, my guest is the Attorney-General, Michelle Rowland. Just briefly, turning to the gun laws, you've got support for a buyback scheme in the Federal Parliament from The Greens in the Senate, but a number of states have either rejected or criticised it. Without all the states on board, is a buyback actually going to happen?
ROWLAND: Well, I look forward to those states doing what is in the national interest. This is an area of reform that has broad support across the community. Australians are asking themselves, how can a non-citizen be in possession lawfully of this number of firearms and firearms of this nature? That is what needs to be reformed, and ensuring that we have these firearms provisions passed today will result in a safer Australia. It's up to the states to step up as well.
SARA: Michelle Rowland, thank you for joining me this morning.
ROWLAND: Pleasure.
