Prime Minister, thanks for talking to us here in Silicon Valley.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you and what a fantastic venue to be at.
SPEERS: Look, it is, and you've just met Tim Cook here at Apple, where we are. He's one of the tech leaders who last week joined others in urgently calling for a slowdown in the development of artificial intelligence. I'm just wondering how you are approaching this issue, particularly the concerns over the past week or so. Do you share fears that AI could end humanity or do you think some of this is overblown?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course there are significant risks and the fact that the leaders of the world's major tech companies, many of whom are based right here in Silicon Valley, are saying that should make it clear to the whole world the risks which are there.
SPEERS: Existential risks, though? I mean, this is a big deal, and it feels like we're at a critical juncture with what we're hearing from these tech leaders. Do you see it as existential?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's a very big deal. I certainly see that. And Tim Cook gave us a lot of time this morning. He regards the work that we've done on social media to be world leading. And it was terrific to be able to be here at Apple. Apple has of course changed the world. It's changed the way that we engage with each other and changed our way of life. And so, because that's had such a big impact, artificial intelligence is moving so fast. And I think there are three issues, really. One is the companies themselves, what safeguards are they putting in place? How are they being transparent? What are the protocols to make sure that it doesn't get beyond their control? The second is, nation states need to engage and need to act. And that's why I've said we'll introduce AI standards, Australian standards in our national interest by the end of the year. And the third issue which will be discussed this week no doubt is, what are the international protocols which are there? Now, there are differences of opinion about that, but I'm looking forward to engaging with leaders this week about what form that might take and what role Australia will play in that.
SPEERS: I want to come to some of that, because that's interesting, your priorities for this week. But just returning to this point about what the risks are right now, I mean, do you fear that AI itself is going to pose a threat or is it rogue states or rogue actors using AI that poses the threat? Or is it both?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it is indeed both, potentially, because the risk is that AI develops in a way in which humans are no longer in control of what AI is producing. Now, this is a risk that was identified even by Pope Leo in his encyclical that was incredibly powerful earlier this year, but it's something that is now being reflected on by the tech companies themselves. So, it is how do we make sure that with any new technology, humans need to be in control? And that's a theme of all of the actions that we are taking, whether it's a social media ban, whether it is the Digital Duty of Care or whether it be the AI Australian standards. How do we make sure that people are in control rather than the technology in control of us?
SPEERS: So, you've laid out the three points or three areas where you would like to see progress here to put safeguards in place, the industry, nation states and international agreement. On the nation states, there are two that really matter here, the US and China. We know Dario Amodei, the Anthropic boss has urged the US and China to tackle the most acute risks here together. Do you agree? Do the two big powers need to work together on this?
PRIME MINISTER: I certainly agree and I hope that out of President Trump and President Xi's meeting this week that there is progress, because the truth is they're the big two giants here. And so, we want to see cooperation. We've seen that in the past with new technologies, even on nuclear weapons, for example, we saw agreements and protocols put in place through the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. So I think we want to see progress between those two countries, but we also, I think middle powers such as Australia have a role to play here as well.
SPEERS: Do you think we will see that progress between the two big powers though? Donald Trump famously is dismissive about the need to slow down the development of AI. He calls these fears a hoax. He says this is a conspiracy. I mean, given what you've just said, that these are legitimate fears. Are you concerned about Donald Trump's approach?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, President Trump of course will act in the interests of the United States, but also there's a need for all of us to act in the interests of humanity.
SPEERS: And is he?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think President Trump knows that at the moment the US is essentially ahead of China when it comes to the race that is on -
SPEERS: And he doesn't want to lose that lead.
PRIME MINISTER: - for the development of this new technology. But it is in the world's interests that there be engagement. I think it's a positive sign that President Trump is meeting President Xi this week and I am hopeful that there will be positive engagement out of it.
SPEERS: But it sounds like you do have a concern at the way Donald Trump is so dismissive of the need to put guardrails or slow down or safeguards in place on AI.
PRIME MINISTER: I think that there are those three elements and all of them will have an impact. Companies themselves have expressed concern, and those protocols I think need to be in place. Nation states will act, but globally there is a need for some action. President Trump will put forward arguments from time to time about advancing the US's position, but I think there is an understanding of how big this change is. And certainly here at Apple today, we've been discussing very directly what the impact of this is.
SPEERS: So, just one more on Donald Trump. You see what he's doing as putting US interests first. You are saying put humanity first?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no, I don't think there's a contradiction because -
SPEERS: There is if he's saying we shouldn't slow down.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there's not a contradiction because it is in the United States' interest for social licence to occur here. They have the big companies that are based here. It's a driver of economic growth. When we look at future growth, it is estimated that AI is already potentially adding about 1 per cent to GDP in the world's largest economy. So, it is certainly in the United States' interest for there to be that recognition of human interests. And President Trump, I'm sure, understands that.
SPEERS: We hear some from time to time suggest Australia should develop its own frontier AI model. The Europeans are trying to do it. Enormously expensive, just for the record. What do you think? Is that something Australia should look at or is that beyond our country?
PRIME MINISTER: I think Australia should certainly be engaged with the frontier level, if you like, because what that is, is the emerging technology and the change that occurs.
SPEERS: But developing our own frontier model?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll be engaged with companies, largely US companies, and the potential is there for development in Australia for economic growth. There are enormous opportunities here from AI in everything from productivity of use by businesses of AI, of health in particular. There's a revolution going on in healthcare and that produces savings as well to the economy, but importantly as well, better healthcare for Australians. Now, the countries that will be able to shape AI and its rollout are companies that are involved in frontier development, and that's why Australia does have an interest in leaning in here. We need to make sure it is in Australia's national interest. We have a range of advantages that make us an attractive place for investment. We're a Five Eyes country. We have a secure legal and political system which is stable. We have the space that is required for renewable energy to help power some of this development as well. And we have the human resources as well with our education system.
SPEERS: But there is one thing Australia has that frustrates the AI companies, and that's our copyright laws. Now, Prime Minister, in your speech back in July, you said on this, no company should use Australian books, music, art, or news to build or train AI without the artist's control. Anything less is theft. Is that still your position?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. And that's our position. And what's more was that statement was welcomed by many of the companies that are involved in development.
SPEERS: But some of those companies, the big two, OpenAI and Anthropic, want those copyright laws watered down.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we think that the protection of the creative sector is very important and we're engaged constructively. I think there's a way through this.
SPEERS: But does that mean any watering down of the copyright laws or not?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what it means is the principles that I put forward, which is for people to still have control over whether their intellectual property is used, and if it is used, for there to be proper monetisation of that use.
SPEERS: So, the principle is to maintain control, but just to be clear, will that mean any watering down of the copyright law?
PRIME MINISTER: What it means is control and monetisation of it. This is a global phenomenon. So, we have a national interest in leaning in here, in being proactive, and that's precisely what we're doing.
SPEERS: And a national security interest, according to the head of the Australian Signals Directorate, who is worried that if we miss out, we're going to be at risk of cyber attack. We need to be at the forefront of this as well. So it does put you in a bind, doesn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it doesn't because our position is clear. And I got ahead of the curve, if you like, by giving that speech at Sydney University earlier this year, in outlining what the principles are, why we felt we needed to lean in. And defence and security are major issues here. And that's why we can't afford to be spectators. We've got to be participants. And that is a focus of my government. That's the announcement that we've made. And just as we've been forward -leaning when it comes to the social media ban, the Digital Duty of Care, all of these issues, we want to recognise that technology can bring enormous benefits, as it has, but we need to shape it rather than allow it to shape us.
SPEERS: So, no change to copyright law?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no change to the principles that I've outlined very clearly.
SPEERS: See, that's different to saying no change to copyright law. What might you change?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I've said what the principles are, which are there and we'll engage constructively on all of these issues.
SPEERS: Will artists have to opt out of having their content scraped by the AI companies?
PRIME MINISTER: Artists need to keep control of their intellectual property. I think that's a very clear position.
SPEERS: Might they have to opt out?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's a very clear position that they will have control over their intellectual property, is a principle. And the second principle is that any use needs to be monetised as well. That needs to be part of the equation.
SPEERS: For all creative content makers, or if AI companies do deals with a certain number, that's all they have to do?
PRIME MINISTER: No, well, if they do deals, then those deals will encompass the artists. One would assume that if they do a deal with the ABC, then the ABC content will be available.
SPEERS: But to all other creative content makers who may not be part of a big organisation?
PRIME MINISTER: I can't be clearer, David, than what I have said.
SPEERS: Okay. On social media, it's a year since you were here in the US addressing the UN General Assembly on this and promoting Australia's age limits. Other countries have followed Australia's lead and you've talked about Apple taking inspiration from Australia as well, and you're now moving on to algorithms through the Digital Duty of Care. Critics do point out plenty of kids are still on social media. Is this where you thought we would be a year on?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course. And that's the way that we announced it as well. Because we were the first, it was never going to be perfect. But in the legislation that we passed just in the last sitting fortnight, I can tell you, David, that already the eSafety Commissioner has used that strengthening of the laws to require some of the social media organisations to provide information to it.
SPEERS: So, they've already been compelled to provide information.
PRIME MINISTER: They have already been compelled to do that. We've already used the legislation. It was delayed for reasons beyond my comprehension, political games from the Coalition and the Crossbench in the Senate. So, it was delayed for a period of time.
SPEERS: So, which social media companies are now being compelled to give documents?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that is of course a commercial issue, so I'm not going to go into the detail. We're also not going to give them notice of it, but the new laws have been used and we're confident that they will also be effective. And that's why we put forward these changes. And of course as part of that as well, the potential for increased fines will make a difference.
SPEERS: The online safety issue will be a priority for you at the UN General Assembly this week. So, to Australia's bid for a seat on the UN Security Council, a temporary seat in 2029-30. When you look at the state of the world today, Prime Minister, do you think the UN Security Council is really effective?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it needs reform and it needs to be made more effective. There's no question about that. I mean, we've got a land war in Europe. We have conflict in the Middle East. Those two things, but particularly the conflict in the Middle East has had an impact on supermarket shelves in Australia. It's having an enormous impact even though we're not protagonists in this conflict. And clearly there's a need for the UN to step up. There's a need for middle powers as well, such as Australia, to exercise the influence that we have. We're in a pretty strong position. We're well regarded around the world. We are middle power located in Asia with a Westminster political system and a legal system that's derived from the UK with elements from the United States here, of course, with our Senate structure. So we have, I think, a strong case. We have been prepared to lead the world and to be a part of peacekeeping missions. And we're the eighth-largest funder of the UN. We think multilateralism is an important part of Australia's foreign policy, and the UN needs to be at the centre of that.
SPEERS: Well, speaking of that multilateralism and middle power diplomacy, Canada and Europe are getting closer together. The European Commission President, as you would know, has even floated the idea of Canada becoming an associate member of the EU. Is that something that you think might be a good idea for Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're a long way from Europe, of course.
SPEERS: Well, so is Canada.
PRIME MINISTER: And our relations, of course, are also in areas that Canada doesn't have. So, ASEAN, for example, and the centrality of ASEAN in our region is important. The Pacific Island Forum where I was just a couple of weeks ago is very important as well. Our priority when it comes to Europe and our engagement with the European Union is, of course, Australia-EU free trade agreement. I noticed that Mathias Cormann, now the Secretary of the OECD, has called upon the Senate to give support to that agreement. I think it is a really important step forward.
SPEERS: Okay, but you're not interested in Australia joining the EU?
PRIME MINISTER: We I think have our focus. We have a very good relationship with the European Union.
SPEERS: Sounds like you're keeping it as a bit of an option open there -
PRIME MINISTER: Well, my focus is on the free trade agreement and getting that in place, both in Australia and in Europe.
SPEERS: Look, just a couple of final ones. The Opposition back home today promising to halve fuel excise every time the Brent crude price goes to more than $100 a barrel for a two week rolling average. Is that a good idea?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we of course did cut the fuel excise in a temporary way. That was important. And the concerns expressed on inflation, there's an impact there as well.
SPEERS: It pushes up inflation when you do it.
PRIME MINISTER: That's right. So look, we understand that prices are going up. That places pressure on families, and that's why we had the tax cuts on 1 July. That's why other measures that we've put in place, measures such as cheaper medicine and free TAFE and other cost-of-living measures to make a difference for people, we have done.
SPEERS: So, you've done it previously, cutting fuel excise, but you're not going to do it again because it would be inflationary?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it was temporary, but we would always weigh up the considerations which are there. And an important consideration is our priority of putting that downward pressure on inflation.
SPEERS: The final question, immigration. The Government's finally unveiled its changes there. Your number though is still considerably higher than the Coalition and One Nation are calling for. Are you prepared, Prime Minister, to have this fight to make the case as to why Australia needs a higher level of immigration than your opponents are suggesting?
PRIME MINISTER: Immigration plays an important role in the economy. It's important to get the balance right. We've done that. We've reduced the net overseas migration already by 45 per cent. We want to make sure as well that people who should leave do leave, so to stop visa hopping. We tried to legislate for stronger measures, but there isn't support in the Senate for that.
SPEERS: Why don't you put the legislation forward? This is to do with, for example, all of dodgy asylum claims, people making claims for asylum to prolong their stay in Australia. Why not put the legislation to Parliament and challenge the Opposition to vote against it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they've said that they will vote against it. And so -
SPEERS: They said they haven't seen anything.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's not right.
SPEERS: They've seen legislation?
PRIME MINISTER: That's not right. There was proper consultation. We weren't able to achieve the outcome that we sought, and hence why we went down the regulatory road, which was what was available to us. But it is important that we get it right. I mean, One Nation are out there talking about reducing to zero net migration.
SPEERS: Net negative.
PRIME MINISTER: The impact that that would have on our economy, no wonder they did no costings on it because it would be diabolical for our economy and have real consequences for issues such as age care, healthcare, the hospitality sector, the agricultural sector.
SPEERS: Do you think the Australian people understand this, because they keep saying in the polling that they want a dramatic cut in immigration.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we will put forward the case. For example, our farmers need the areas to come in if they're going to have their crops picked. That is just something that the farming sector are telling us and it's something that's a reality as well as a range of other areas as well, including in the care sector, as well as the role that programmes like the PALM scheme, allowing Pacific workers to come in as well. One Nation on your programme, you'll recall, said that they wanted 130,000 and then added up the extras, which added up to around about the same number.
SPEERS: That was David Farley. I don't know if Pauline Hanson agreed with him on that.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, David Farley is the only person to ever be elected to the House of Representatives under the One Nation label. Pauline Hanson was of course a Liberal candidate who then became an independent during the campaign when she was elected in 1996. So I think he has some credibility when it comes to, and also some firsthand knowledge of the needs of the agricultural sector.
SPEERS: All of that is a long way from Silicon Valley. Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: It is indeed.
SPEERS: We thank you for joining us here on Insiders at Apple. Thanks so much.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for having us on the programme from San Francisco.
