: After the massive rallies this weekend and a big debate about what they mean, the Prime Minister is my guest this afternoon. Prime Minister, welcome.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good afternoon, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Do you think there were good people with legitimate concerns at these anti-immigration rallies this weekend?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course, there's always good people will turn up to demonstrate their views about particular issues. But what we have here is neo-Nazis being given a platform. That's what we saw on the weekend. And the tone of course of much of the rallies was - unfortunate is the best way that you could put it, but hateful in some of the extreme examples. And the idea that an open neo-Nazi was able to give a speech from the steps of the Victorian Parliament is something that isn't the Australian way.
KARVELAS: Liberal frontbencher Jacinta Nampijinpa Price said she wants to congratulate the marchers and that the vast majority were people who love this country. Is that how you saw it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I did see her comments and they don't reflect what my view of these rallies were. We need to cherish who we are and social cohesion. And as public officeholders, we have an important role to play in promoting unity, national unity. And modern Australia is different, as I said in Question Time today, from the days of the White Australia policy. We're a modern nation that has benefited from our multiculturalism, that overwhelmingly people live in harmony of different ethnicities, different religions, different backgrounds. And we're enriched by the diversity in this country. We need to show respect for each other. And there will always be people who seek to say, look, your lot in life could be better. And it's because of people who don't look like you. Now, a whole range of people, it's legitimate, of course, to have a debate -
KARVELAS: So, you think it is based on economic grievance? The numbers we saw, the vast majority of people who turned up?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they weren't big numbers in the scheme of things, in a nation of 27 million people, let's be clear here.
KARVELAS. So, you do think this is a tiny proportion of the Australian population that has this anti-immigration sentiment?
PRIME MINISTER: That shows that that was the case. And there's always been an element of people who would appeal to any immigration as a platform. But migration has, of course, brought a great deal of benefit to our nation. With the exception of First Nations people, we are all either migrants or the descendants of migrants. This is an interview between someone called Karvelas and someone called Albanese, not Smith and Jones, or let alone First Nations names. And so, we have in this country three great traditions. Of course, First Nations people, the great privilege we have. We have then the arrival of the British colony and what they brought, the Westminster system, a whole lot of those British-based traditions. And then throughout our history as well, we've had waves of migrants coming, enriching our nation through their contribution to Australia.
KARVELAS: Do you think there's growing resentment towards migration and does it worry you?
PRIME MINISTER: I think that there has always been elements. I ran for President of Sydney Uni SRC against someone called James Saleem, a leader of National Action, on anti-Asian - being kept out of -
KARVELAS: It's always been with us. But is it rising again? Does that worry you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we need to do is to be vigilant about it. What has occurred now is that it's much easier to organise through social media, through platforms, and easier as well for people to have their views reinforced, often of which are based upon things which aren't just fact. Like our net overseas migration is falling, it fell substantially in 2024, of course there was going to be an increased number after the lockdown of our entire continent that occurred during COVID -
KARVELAS: So, is your message to these people, we are getting the numbers down?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we are getting the numbers down. But migration also is important and multiculturalism is a part of who we are as a modern nation. And I just say to people of - and I have no doubt that there would have been good people who went along, heard about a rally, are concerned, have views -
KARVELAS: I've seen them talk about long housing queues for rentals. They're concerned about their access to housing.
PRIME MINISTER: Of course. But you should have a look at who you were with on Sunday, I think, and the motivation that they have. Which isn't actually about housing or our economy or anything else, it's about sowing division. And neo-Nazis have no role. The fact that people are openly identifying that way -
KARVELAS: What did you think of what they did in Camp Sovereignty in Melbourne, where they went and destroyed that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's just - exactly. Here you have people who are saying they're against migration. Well, the first Australians were here before any migrant or descendant of migrants. And that just has no place, that sort of violence has no place.
KARVELAS: Let me ask you about this. Yesterday Julian Leeser told my colleague, he stood by his statement that there was a direct line between your Government's UN voting record and the attacks we're seeing. We're seeing the arson attack on the Adass Israel Synagogue. Now ASIO says that Iran is responsible, but still Julian Leeser has stood by his comments. He says that you have delegitimised Jewish people through that voting record and actions. Are Jewish people delegitimised?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think they're unfortunate comments from Julian Leeser. I understand that this has been a difficult time for Jewish people, as well as it's been a difficult time for people with relatives in Gaza or the West Bank as well. We have been very clear and unequivocal about our opposition to the events of 7 October. The contradiction in what Julian says, of course, perhaps the best one, and I'll make two points - one, there are hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens who have demonstrated on the streets against actions of the Israeli government. They're not questioning the legitimacy of Israel. They are speaking out about legitimate concerns. The two tap incident that occurred at the hospital at Khan Younis that led to the death of journalists, the death of medical workers. It is legitimate to express a view about that not being acceptable. And -
KARVELAS: You don't accept you were too slow in taking action to support Jews? Because that's the argument they make.
PRIME MINISTER: Not at all -
KARVELAS: Too slow to list the IRGC?
PRIME MINISTER: I have called out antisemitism on each and every occasion. And it seems to me that, I find it unfortunate that the argument which is put there somehow provides for the Iranian regime that was responsible for commencing through people, the criminal elements to commit these crimes - they need to be given agency for what they have done and not seek to transfer that agency to someone else.
KARVELAS: Okay, I want to move on to Nauru, Prime Minister, this deal with the Nauruan Government for the cohort of asylum seekers that you haven't been able to do much with out of the High Court decision. Why so much secrecy around that deal?
PRIME MINISTER: It's hardly secret. You just asked me about it on national TV.
KARVELAS: Well, no, I will contest that. There was no release put out.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes there was.
KARVELAS: It was quietly put on the website.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it was out there and there was -
KARVELAS: It wasn't easy to find, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: It was reported. It was reported. Tony Burke went to the Nauruan Parliament and spoke with the Nauru Government. There's nothing secret about it.
KARVELAS: Well, tell me about the deal, then. $400 million. Is that just up front?
PRIME MINISTER: Nothing secret about it. The arrangements, we have put out, we'll continue to engage. Of course we want to deal with the NZYQ issue. These are people who do not have a legitimate reason to stay in Australia. They've been found to have no rights to be here and therefore people have no right to be here -
KARVELAS. So, you're paying off a poor country to take them?
PRIME MINISTER: No, people who have no right to be here need to be found somewhere to go -
KARVELAS: Okay, so just tell me about the deal, 400 million, is it up front?
PRIME MINISTER: If they can't go home - well, you can, you know, use your own -
KARVELAS: Well, I don't know, because it's not my deal. It's your deal. Is it $400 million upfront?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you do know there's a range of arrangements in place between us and the Nauruan Government. It's about protecting Australia's interests -
KARVELAS: They say - okay -
PRIME MINISTER: And we make no apologies for the fact that we have been very clear about trying to deal with a decision of the High Court -
KARVELAS: I understand the complexity -
PRIME MINISTER: A decision of the High Court that has found that people who have no reason to be here, no legitimacy in staying here, have to -
KARVELAS: Just clarify this for me, because I have to have to have this clarified. So, it's $400 up front and then $70 million a year. For how long does that go on for?
PRIME MINISTER: No. Well, there's a range of arrangements in place. Some of those are government-to-government and no doubt when -
KARVELAS: Is it in perpetuity - like, does it just keep going or is it a timeframe?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it doesn't, Patricia. And it's an arrangement between our Government and the Nauruan Government.
KARVELAS: But will you make the details of the payments clear, for how long they get $70 million a year?
PRIME MINISTER: It's an arrangement between the Australian Government -
KARVELAS: That's not an answer.
PRIME MINISTER: - and the Nauruan Government, and it's determined upon - there's complexities and detail here, including the number of people who go. There's a range of provisions as part of it.
KARVELAS. So, do they get the $400 million even if they take no asylum seekers?
PRIME MINISTER: There are arrangements in place, Patricia, and we have an arrangement between our Government and the Nauruan Government.
KARVELAS: Do they have to take that cohort to get that money?
PRIME MINISTER: There's an arrangement between the Australian Government and the Nauruan Government.
KARVELAS: Will you make - okay, you're clearly not wanting to tell me here, so are you going to make those details clear or will they be shrouded in secrecy?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they're made clear between our Government and the Nauruan Government in a respectful way, as you would expect, rather than just on a program, in an interview -
KARVELAS: But do you understand why people find - because it's a lot of public money, that - why does it have to be shrouded in that kind of secrecy if we are going to a foreign government that might not -
PRIME MINISTER: Government-to-government arrangements are often then released appropriately at the same time together, and that -
KARVELAS: Is that coming still?
PRIME MINISTER: The Australian Government and Nauruan government, as part of this, we'll release information together, which is what you would expect.
KARVELAS: Okay, and do you expect that whole cohort to go there?
PRIME MINISTER: It depends upon all of the arrangements which are there, Patricia. This has been an evolving issue where we've had to deal with individuals. We, of course, have said that people who have no right to stay here should not stay here. If they can't be sent back to their country of origin because of refoulement provisions and obligations that we have, then we needed to find another country for them to go to -
KARVELAS: And is it a long-term arrangement, not a short term arrangement, with Nauru? This will go on for -?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you'll see that, Patricia - obviously, we have arrangements with Nauru. We have a range of economic arrangements with people, with countries in our region, not just Nauru, over a range of issues.
KARVELAS: Aged care. You were under pressure in Question Time. Your minister -
PRIME MINISTER: No we weren't.
KARVELAS: Well, you were asked a lot of questions.
PRIME MINISTER: He nailed it. He nailed it, Patricia. They raised - they left aged care in an absolute mess -
KARVELAS: Now it's under your watch -
PRIME MINISTER: We had an Aged Care Royal Commission that described the position of aged care with one word, neglect -
KARVELAS: Absolutely, so right now -
PRIME MINISTER: And what we have done and what we have done is deliver a nurse in every nursing home 99 per cent of the time -
KARVELAS: Delay of these in-home packages -
PRIME MINISTER: That is what we have done. And in home packages -
KARVELAS: Why did you delay until November?
PRIME MINISTER: No, this is a new stream. Be very clear -
KARVELAS: But it was delayed.
PRIME MINISTER: Be very clear. This is a new stream, a new system. We had an election in May, just in May. So, in the lead up to July 1, we had a federal election. That meant that there was a new Minister, new department, all of those processes in place. We got feedback from the sector that they wanted to make sure it was got right, to make sure that we got the detail right. But this isn't a pause. People are still getting, as the Minister said today, they are getting packages -
KARVELAS: In the existing scheme, not from the new -
PRIME MINISTER: In the existing scheme, because it begins on November 1. So, the system that has been in place for month after month, year after year for some time, going back to the previous government, is continuing. People are still getting priority support and still being looked after. But what we have here is, is the biggest reforms in aged care this century.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, final question. Are you disappointed you won't be able to meet with the Palestinian authorities, President Abbas, now in the United Nations? He's not getting a visa.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's a decision for the United States, but I can have discussions between people. I've met Mr Abbas before in Australia -
KARVELAS: So, you'll find another way to talk to him? You were going to meet him on the sidelines.
PRIME MINISTER: Indeed. But that is a process. We'll wait and see how that's finalised. The United Nations process is a complex one and that's the subject of some work to be done.
KARVELAS: Thank you so much for coming, and I appreciate it.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Patricia.
