Prime Minister, thanks for your time.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Wonderful to be with you here in Chengdu.
TINGLE: I keep being asked, when I'm talking back to Australia, about what we got out of this trip. People do tend to think of these things in transactional terms. But I'm interested in how you compare this with, say, that first meeting you had with President Xi in Indonesia a couple of years ago. The importance of this really is about the relationship, which is something that's a bit more intangible, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: That's right, and this is about stabilising the relationship. It was at a bad point prior to our election in 2022. Since then, we have seen over $20 billion of trade impediments removed and we're now exporting large amounts, in some cases more than we were before. Barley into China, as well as wine, our other agricultural exports as well as our resources exports. And one of the really significant meetings that we've had here is on steel decarbonisation. Iron ore represents by far our largest export by value, and overwhelmingly it comes here to China. China produces over 50 per cent of the world's steel. If we're going to address the emissions reduction that the globe needs, then steel decarbonisation has to be a part of that. And the idea of combining on green metals, green steel production is something that is very significant to take the world forward as well as being in our national economic interest.
TINGLE: The business community had some ideas on both sides about how to further expand the relationship. They were talking about things like free economic zones. Do you think that we can now move forward in the relationship, expand it into even further areas?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we certainly can move forward in the relationship. We've seen a stabilisation and that's been really important. Building trust takes time, but it's also about relationships. And our relationship with China is about trade, it's about tourism, it's about engagement in our region. It's also of course about our people-to-people links. Our 1.4 million strong Chinese-Australian diaspora provides an important linkage between Australia and China. That is so important. We're a part of this region, and China has grown enormously. This city we are in now, 21 million people. When you go through these extraordinary, wide streets, look at what they're doing with urban development, including sustainable development. Some of the best examples in the world of using renewable energy, of having the idea of a city where everyone can walk within 15 minutes of services and jobs and housing is I think an example of the growth that has occurred in China. Now, Australia has an important relationship with our own region, not just with China, with ASEAN, with the Pacific, but China has to be a part of that.
TINGLE: Well, people talk about the tightrope you have to walk in China between that economic relationship that we have and obviously the national security issues, attached to the fact that it's obviously growing in military strength in front of our eyes. How tricky is that tightrope as far as you are concerned for Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: You've just got to be clear and consistent. We have different political systems, we have different values. But we shouldn't allow our differences to define us. We should acknowledge what they are, be prepared to engage with them, engage with them constructively. It's a part of, if you like, my three phrases I consistently use and have used since the time I was Labor leader from Opposition, is that we should cooperate where we can, disagree where we must. And there are areas where we will continue to disagree, but engage in our national interest.
TINGLE: What should Australians make of China's actions in Australia's waters? Recently, in the wake of this visit, you made a reference to it in your remarks to President Xi. He seemed to listen to it, but not really respond. It was interesting that he didn't feel the need to respond back either on the Port of Darwin or Taiwan. I mean, where do you think the relationship goes in terms of China's preparedness to go into our waters?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, when it comes to military exercises, of course, in international waters, Australia participates regularly in exercises, including around the South China Sea in the region where we are now. And so, we shouldn't be surprised that there will be exercises conducted. What we should do is seek greater clarification, greater notice to make sure there's no misadventure there. But as I said at the time, we regretted that, we didn't want to see that happening, but we did acknowledge that it was within international law.
TINGLE: China portrays itself particularly at the moment as a peacekeeper and calm and steady hand, the adult in the room, particularly in contrast with the Trump administration. But the reality is that Chinese troops have now been captured in Ukraine. Does that portrait of itself as a peacemaker really stand up?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we made our position very clear about Ukraine to the Chinese leadership here over the past days. We do have differences. We do have differences with some of the actions of China in our own region, let alone in Ukraine, and we point those out. We, for example, in the Pacific, are very clear that we want the Pacific family to look after our own security and don't want to see an increased military presence in the region. Now, we'll continue to do that. We engage with our Pacific neighbours just as we engage constructively with our ASEAN neighbours as well.
TINGLE: In your John Curtin Oration recently, you seemed to recast the beginning of the US relationship in different terms to the way we've thought about it until now, really focusing on it as a statement of Australian independence, which obviously has a particular context at the moment. The story that appeared this week about Elbridge Colby and war and Taiwan and submarines, it suggests a certain level of presumption in the US about the relationship with Australia, doesn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: We, of course, are a sovereign nation. And John Curtin, certainly, when he chose to stand up to the British and assert Australia's right to defend ourself and to bring home our troops, was an assertion of that. And he looked to America, of course - was an important part of that as well. Now since then, the US alliance, that was formalised some years later, but essentially it can be seen as beginning there in the heat of the Second World War. The US alliance has been our most important, it remains our most important alliance. That is a critical relationship that we have for our defence and security. But that doesn't abrogate the need for Australia to have a say in our own defence and security relationships.
TINGLE: It was a bit sort of presumptuous though, wasn't it? For him to suggest that Australia and Japan should commit to this when the US itself hasn't said what it would do.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the United States has had a policy of strategic ambiguity over these issues. It's one that's been shared by Australia. We don't want to see any change to the status quo. We have supported the One China policy, as does the United States as part of the recognition of China that occurred, in our case, under Gough Whitlam.
TINGLE: How confident are you in the Trump administration's current commitment to the Asia-Pacific?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm confident that it is in the United States' interests. Of course, they have a major presence in - they're a Pacific nation - there. And their naval presence, based in Hawaii, is one where Australia participates with our allies, there in Hawaii. And I visited the centre there and engaged with the leadership there in the Pacific. And I think that the United States will continue to be engaged. That's an important thing for their presence and we welcome it.
TINGLE: When you look at the Trump administration's actions in recent times, does it make you question their reliability as an ally? I mean, if Donald Trump's making decisions to unilaterally bomb a country or impose tariffs on its allies, it doesn't suggest it's a very reliable ally, does it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we continue to express our support for the relationship with the United States. It is our most important ally. We continue to have constructive relations with the US. I note on tariffs, there's no country that has received a better deal than Australia. I have engaged constructively with members of the Trump administration, as have other members of my Government, and indeed, President Trump's inauguration of course was attended by Penny Wong. All of the Quad foreign ministers were invited there. And I saw that very much as a sign of the importance that President Trump places in the Quad and in the discussions I've had with him, they have been constructive and that they certainly have not engaged any negativity around AUKUS. And when I visited the United States for my state visit and met with so many members of Congress and the Senate, there was overwhelming support for the AUKUS arrangements.
TINGLE: The Curtin speech also reflects a very rapidly changing world, even since the time you first became Prime Minister. Some of those changes involve other countries. Israel seems to have changed its actions. We've now seen condemnation from the ICC and the ICJ. The Spanish Prime Minister recently spoke of a catastrophe of genocide. Do we need to change our thinking about Israel?
PRIME MINISTER: We need to always engage in the world as it is rather than as we would like it to be. And Israel's actions, many of the actions of the Netanyahu government, including by its ministers, have led my government indeed to sanction ministers in the Netanyahu government. We would not have thought was on the agenda in 2022 when I was elected. Australia is a long-term supporter and indeed played a role in the creation of the state of Israel. But at that time, it's important to remember that two states were envisaged. And Australia, and certainly my Government, has continued to support two states in the Middle East, a state of Israel and a state of Palestine. And we want Israel to continue to exist within secure borders and to be able to live without the threat of terrorists such as Hamas engaging in the sort of atrocities we saw on 7 October. But Palestinians have a legitimate aspiration for a state of their own and to be able to achieve prosperity. And that is something that has been a bipartisan position as well, going back to - John Howard said there could be no peace in the Middle East without dealing with the Palestinian question.
TINGLE: Beyond the actual politics of it though, Prime Minister, what chance is there of having two states when Gaza has basically been reduced to rubble, in the West Bank there's further incursions by Israel? I mean, what's going to actually realistically be there of a Palestinian state if it was even possible?
PRIME MINISTER: The globe has to play a role in it.
TINGLE: And what's our role?
PRIME MINISTER: And obviously the role of the United States will be central to that. Australia isn't a central player in the Middle East, but what we can do is continue to do what we have done, which is to take a principled position. We opposed unequivocally, the atrocity that occurred on 7 October. We have called for ceasefire consistently. We've called for the release of hostages. We've also called for the aid to be able to flow to the people of Gaza. And we've called out Israel for its actions that have led of course to such appalling conditions and loss of innocent life. And the resolution that was carried in the Parliament just days after 7 October, I think will stand the history well. Because when you look at that, at the time we spoke about opposing the loss of innocent life, whether it be Israeli or Palestinian.
TINGLE: With respect, things have escalated. We are now seeing Palestinians regularly killed while waiting for food and water. Do we need to start changing our view of what's happening in Israel?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that is completely indefensible. And we've called that out each and every time that that has occurred. And we have - I've issued a number of joint statements, for example, with the Canadian and New Zealand prime ministers. We've joined the international community, which overwhelmingly has condemned actions such as that. And the other thing that we've done is to say in private what we say publicly as well, which is that Israel, and we say this as a friend, sometimes you've got to be straight and upfront. And I certainly have said to, for example, President Herzog, who I've known for a long period of time, that Israel is losing support by its own actions and that some of its actions are completely indefensible.
TINGLE: Australians really haven't had much of a chance to debate AUKUS because it was signed and both sides agreed to it. Can you assure us that it did not come with any pre-commitments to US actions? I'm not talking just about Taiwan, but to what extent does it lock us into military actions by the United States?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Australia's a sovereign nation and governments of the day make decisions on behalf of the Australian Government. And certainly I cannot envisage a circumstance where an Australian government would give up that sovereignty. Now, I note in recent days, most of the Coalition have said that that's the case. Angus Taylor has said something different and it's up to them to really clarify exactly what their position is.
TINGLE: Is a forward defence strategy, which is at the heart of the AUKUS deal, really the appropriate one given these changing times? Would it be better to focus on defence of Australia and is there room for the AUKUS deal to morph, if the Americans decide to walk away from the idea of us actually buying submarines?
PRIME MINISTER: What we've done is invest in our capability, but also invest in our relationships. When it comes to our capability, the getting, obtaining, by Australia of nuclear powered submarines has a number of advantages over other pieces of military equipment. The fact that a nuclear powered submarine can stay under, submerged, for longer, that it can travel further, that it's quieter, that it's less detectable, means that it's an investment, which my Government agreed with the former government was in Australia's national interest.
TINGLE: Finally, Prime Minister, Parliament comes back after the election for the first time next week. What are your priorities going to be?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's going be a big fortnight. The first thing that we will do is to introduce legislation fulfilling our commitment to reduce student debt by 20 per cent. On the following day, on Thursday, we'll introduce legislation to deal with some of the issues that have arisen in child care to make sure that there's greater confidence about safety in the child care sector, and to allow us to withdraw funding from child care centres that stray from what should be happening of keeping children safe. But we'll also have, we've got 24 new members. So, one of the priorities we have at the beginning of the term is making sure that they can fully participate. There's 24 members on the government side who are new. So, there'll be a range of first speeches in the first fortnight. We really wanted to bring Parliament back, Parliament didn't have to come back until August, but we brought it back a bit earlier so that they can then fully participate. So, I'm really looking forward to Parliament resuming. We've got a big agenda. We made a range of commitments at the election, and we have a range of commitments as well that flow and build on what we achieved in our first term. So, I look forward to Tuesday. It will be a big day and a big moment, particularly for those members who are being sworn in for the very first time.
TINGLE: Thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Laura.
