Prime Minister, welcome to 7.30.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good evening, Sarah.
FERGUSON: Will Australia recognise a Palestinian state at the time of the UN General Assembly in September?
PRIME MINISTER: We won't be driven by a time frame. What we'll be driven by is when the recognition of Palestine can make a contribution to the creation of two states that is very much our focus. We have supported, indeed, there's been a bipartisan support for two states for a long period of time, and we think that arising out of what is a crisis, the world needs to look at the opportunity that there is not just to solve the current crisis, but how do we create security for both the state of Israel and the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians for their own state to be realised.
FERGUSON: So you're not putting a a specific date on it at this stage, but clearly there has been an evolution in your thinking. Under what conditions would Australia recognise a Palestinian state?
PRIME MINISTER: That decision to recognise on the path to a two state being created would make a positive difference, and there has been, of course, significant advance. Penny Wong, a year ago, said that it didn't need to be the final stage, that recognition could occur as part of the pathway to the creation of two states. And since then, of course, in recent times, we've seen some significant advances, including the statement by the Palestinian Authority on June 10, recognising Israel, opposing any future involvement of Hamas in a Palestinian state committing to democratic elections within 12 months of a Palestinian state being created, and excluding Hamas from that process. And a view around the world, I think that, as John Howard said way back in 2006, that there can be no peace in the Middle East without solving the Palestinian question, and that means recognising, and the creation of those two states.
FERGUSON: What needs to change for Australia to make a public statement on this matter?
PRIME MINISTER: We will give consideration to all of the factors which are there, but I believe very strongly that the legitimate aspirations for of the Palestinian people need to be realised, but in order for that to be achieved, there needs to also be security for the state of Israel, and that's why issues such as a demilitarised state in Gaza and the West Bank is an important step on that, as well as the recognition by the states around Israel of its legitimacy as well to continue to exist. Now the conference has just taken place in New York, it's seen the Arab states make some clear statements that are positive along those lines as well. So, it's a matter of - you can't advance the cause of Palestinian self-determination without also advancing the need for Israel to have security.
FERGUSON: Yes, but as you say, those statements were made recently by the Palestinian Authority. So, what I'm looking to understand is what needs to change for Australia's position to firm up. What else do you need to hear before you make a commitment? Like France has, like the UK has, like Canada has?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the UK, of course - I talked with Prime Minister Starmer last night. The UK have made a provisional statement if the peace talks are not advanced, and they have said they will recognise in September if that does not occur. From our perspective, we're a sovereign state. We'll make our own decisions, and it will be that main question, which is clear, will Australia recognising, making that statement that you can only make once, of course, and once you make that declaration, you lose your capacity to negotiate and to influence outcomes to some extent. So, it will be based upon not whether a timeline is reached, but whether an objective is reached. And our objective is very clear, which is we do support a two state solution that, of course, one of those states is Israel and one of them is Palestine.
FERGUSON: So, what is stopping you at the moment making a commitment similar to the one made by the Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, who stipulated those things: a demilitarisation of a Palestinian state, elections for the Palestinian Authority to be held next year, and the exit of Hamas from governance in Gaza. He made the commitment with those stipulations. Why can't you do the same?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, those stipulations need to be advanced. That's the point. And we want to make sure that it's not just a gesture, but that it's a positive contribution to that.
FERGUSON: Do you think Mark Carney thinks it's just a gesture? A gesture when he says that Canada will recognise Palestine if those conditions are met?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I think that he has made a decision, as the Prime Minister of Canada. We'll make a decision as the Australian Government, as a sovereign government, that it is in Australia's national interest, because Australia has an interest in the world being more peaceful and more secure. And clearly, the issue of Palestine and the Middle East conflict has gone on for a very long time now, and it has had a destabilising impact on the world, which has impacted here in Australia as well.
FERGUSON: The thing that I'm pressing you on, Prime Minister, to stay on the point is what needs to change beyond the situation that exists already. You've had some commitments, you've seen the way other countries have handled it. What needs to change for you to make that final step?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it won't be a personal decision. It'll be a decision by the Australian Government based upon the assessment that my fellow Cabinet Members will make, that us making that declaration will actually make a difference and be a positive step towards the realisation of the two-state goal.
FERGUSON: You said you want the US to play a role as well. If the US won't support recognition of Palestine, will you accept that, effectively as a form of veto on Australia's decision?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we'll make our own decisions. But clearly the United States have a role to play here. They are significant players in that region. Australia is not so. I think there is an opportunity for the United States to play a leadership role here, for President Trump to play a role that, of course, will be a matter for them, but the US has had long engagement in the Middle East, and clearly what needs to occur in order to have the two state solution realised, is an overall plan for the entire region and the United States has a role to play in that.
FERGUSON: Will Australia move if America doesn't?
PRIME MINISTER: We'll make our own decisions.
FERGUSON: Let me just bring it back to Keir Starmer. Do you support the way the UK has framed this that is, they will recognise Palestine unless Israel takes, quote, substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza?
PRIME MINISTER: What Keir Starmer is clearly doing here is putting Israel on notice that they have an opportunity to seize the opportunity going forward, to advance, not just the issue of humanitarian aid, and that was one of the issues that we discussed last night. Australia is certainly prepared to provide additional aid to Gaza. We have a humanitarian catastrophe unfolding there, and Australia is willing to play our part there. Keir Starmer is clearly saying to Israel, as I have, that they need to allow aid to flow freely into Gaza so as to avoid what we're seeing there with innocent people being deprived of essential food and water. And that is indeed something that is bringing, I think, legitimate criticism of the actions of the Netanyahu Government. Too many innocent lives have been lost. And Sarah, what I believe very strongly Australians want to see is two things they want to see, the killing stop, whether it be Israelis or Palestinians who are innocent losing their lives. They're horrified by the terrorist actions of Hamas on October 7 in slaughtering innocent Israeli citizens, and they're horrified by the deprivation. That we've seen and the loss of innocent life in Gaza, they also don't want to see the conflict, such as the increase in settlements that we've seen increased violence by settlers in the West Bank.
FERGUSON: Are you concerned that it's actually too late for many people in Gaza, especially children, that a tipping point has been passed in terms of malnutrition and starvation in Gaza?
PRIME MINISTER: These are terrible circumstances, and they are completely unjustifiable and indefensible. I've made that clear in discussions I directly have had with President Herzog of Israel, and I've made public comments as well. I think Australians all would want to see that never happen, and we are deeply concerned. It is hard for us to get aid in and certainly, the dropping of aid by air has not been enough. You need to open up fully access for aid into Gaza so as to save lives.
FERGUSON: Have you come to the conclusion now that Israel's failure to enable both the delivery and the dispersal of aid inside Gaza is using starvation as a weapon of war?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what I would say is that Israel's actions are not defensible. That when we passed a resolution in the Parliament, we said very clearly after October 7 that Israel has a right to defend itself, and it certainly does, but it also has to how it defends itself matters, and it has to comply with international law. And when we see the substantial loss of innocent life, the deprivation that's occurring in Gaza, the fact is that Hamas, of course, with their actions on October 7, of course, responsible for engaging in terrorist activity, and the state of Israel, of course, responded by defending itself. But the figures that we've seen with the loss of innocent life and deprivation in Gaza, are a human tragedy.
FERGUSON: Are you saying that they are guilty of a war crime, therefore, which is using starvation as a weapon of war?
PRIME MINISTER: No, there are processes to go through those sort of declarations -
FERGUSON: What advice has your Attorney-General given you?
PRIME MINISTER: Those processes take place. Our Attorney-General is concerned about Australian law. We are not players in the Middle East. What I would say is what your viewers would say. As Australians, we look at the tragedy that is unfolding in Gaza and has been there for far too long now, and we say there's been a far too great loss of innocent life.
FERGUSON: I just want to come back to the principal question and the UN meeting in September, if those security conditions for Israel are not met to your satisfaction, is Australia prepared to stand by while other countries recognise Palestine?
PRIME MINISTER: We'll make a decision at an appropriate time if we believe that making that decision advances the objective, which is the creation of a two state solution.
FERGUSON: I just want to come to this two weeks in Parliament. We spoke to you at the beginning of these two weeks, one of the things that's happened is that you have postponed debate on changes to superannuation tax. I'm just wondering what that delay is about, are you hoping to achieve a grander bargain with the Greens on wealth tax? Is that why you're delaying, to achieve something bigger?
PRIME MINISTER: Not at all. As I said to you at the beginning of the parliamentary fortnight, what we've been focused on is delivering on the agenda that we took to the election, in particular those measures that make a practical difference to lift living standards. So, on July 1, we had the paid parental leave, increase in superannuation, paid prac for teachers and nurses and social welfare workers. We had as well, super being paid on paid parental leave, we had the increase in minimum wages and award wages for over three million Australians. This fortnight, we've concentrated on delivering on cheaper medicines, on protecting penalty rates, and today, the Parliament has passed through both houses now, the 20 per cent reduction in student debt that will put an extra $5,500 of benefit for three million Australians, as well as we had to deal with the regulation of child care, dealing with the crisis that your program has focused on.
FERGUSON: Prime Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Sarah.
