Sarah Ferguson, Host: The Foreign Minister Penny Wong joins me now. Foreign Minister, welcome to the program.
Foreign Minister, Penny Wong: Good to be with you, Sarah.
Ferguson: The Prime Minister said last week he wanted this decision of recognising Palestine to have maximum impact. So, what impact will it have?
Foreign Minister: This was the best opportunity that Australia has to contribute momentum. Momentum for a peace process that does require a two-state solution. So, we have thought deeply about this. We have worked on this for long time. I have been engaging for over a year about this, about how we work together with the international community to find a way to break the cycle of violence in the Middle East and to help work to bring about peace. We've seen the momentum with other countries moving. Importantly, we've seen what the Arab League has said about the need for Hamas to relinquish control of Gaza and lay down their weapons. This is our best opportunity to isolate Hamas, to contribute towards a two-state solution, to break the cycle of violence. So that is why we have determined to recognise Palestine at the UN in September.
Ferguson: Now, you said that you will do that if certain conditions are met. That's what the Prime Minister said. What happens if those conditions are not met? Will you still recognise Palestine in September?
Foreign Minister: What we have said is that we will recognise Palestine in September. We've also said that that recognition is based on the commitments we have from the Palestinian Authority and which have been made publicly in the New York Call and in letters to the Saudis and to President Macron of France. These are public commitments. We have said we will work with others to hold the Palestinian Authority to those commitments…and what I said today…
Ferguson: Can I just press you Foreign Minister on that question. We'll come to those commitments in a moment. But if those commitments which are to do with the demilitarisation of a Palestinian state. If those commitments are not met, will the Australian Government still recognise a Palestinian state at the UN in September?
Foreign Minister: Well, we have said we will recognise a Palestinian state at the UN in September. What we will also do is work with the international community to hold the Palestinian Authority to its commitments. And they are important and historic commitments. I also would like to make this point about why this time matters so deeply. We do have unprecedented commitments from the Arab League. A group of Arab countries saying Hamas must lay down their arms, Hamas must relinquish their control on Gaza. These are historic commitments, and we need to take this opportunity to contribute to peace. And we all know why. We are all haunted by the images that we have seen. Both of the horrors of October 7th, and by what has occurred since - the deprivation and the deaths of so many innocent people. And we are compelled to act by the circumstances.
Ferguson: But let's be clear about these conditions. Because principally, as I just referred to, they relate to Hamas giving up its weapons to the Palestinian state, relinquishing armed control of Gaza. The Palestinian Authority does not control the Gaza Strip. So how can those conditions be met in your view?
Foreign Minister: What we have to do is we have to isolate Hamas. We have to work to take power from Hamas, take decisions out of Hamas' hands. How do we best do that? Well, we best do that by working with others such as the Arab League, the Palestinian Authority, who have made clear that they want Hamas to relinquish control. And by empowering those voices in the Middle East, we have to respond to the circumstances we see Sarah. And I think Australians have been horrified by what they have seen and Australians do want their government to work with others to try and find a way out of the violent cycle that we have seen.
Ferguson: And just to talk about the most recent iteration of that violence cycle, was Benjamin Netanyahu's announcement that he would extend the war in Gaza and occupy Gaza City. Was that the final straw for the government in making this decision?
Foreign Minister: We certainly are very concerned with this decision by the Israeli Security Cabinet, and we disagree with it fundamentally. And I joined others in calling out our opposition to it. It will exacerbate a humanitarian disaster. It will escalate the conflict. It risks the lives of- endangers the lives of hostages. And it will contribute to continued conflict. Permanent forced displacement is not consistent with international law. So, we've been very clear about that. What that did confirm for us, I think, and I think to the world regrettably, is that at the moment, a ceasefire is not within reach. I wish it were not so. I wish we had a ceasefire, aid to flow, and the hostages released.
Ferguson: And yet, in, in this moment, when you are stipulating as a condition for recognition that Hamas should lay down its arms and leave Gaza, the contradiction is that Israel has just said that it's going to continue. In fact, extend the occupation, extend the war in Gaza. In those circumstances, why would Hamas, a reviled terrorist organisation, lay down its arms no matter what the Arab League says?
Foreign Minister: I speak for Australia and what I can say to you is, like others, we are working to deliver a change in the cycle of violence that we have seen. And to work with others to try and provide some hope in what has been a very dark time. And I spoke with the Foreign Minister of the Palestinian Authority, and I saw her comments publicly today, which talked about the sense of hope as a result of, not our decision, but also the decision of so many other countries to say we have to find a different way. We have to find a way to to stop this violence and the trauma that it's caused and its caused and it is causing.
Ferguson: You briefed the US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, about the Australian Government's decision. Did he try to dissuade you from your course of action?
Foreign Minister: I don't go into all the details of discussions, but I had a very good conversation with Secretary Rubio. We've had many conversations. We spoke about a number of issues. This was one of them. As a matter of courtesy, I did want to give him advance notice of our announcement. But we also spoke about the Indo-Pacific more broadly, which is obviously the primary focus of our engagement so often.
Ferguson: But it is inevitable, isn't it, that the US will veto any vote in the Security Council, any vote in the UN on Palestinian recognition? So, in the end, this desire for peace will hit a real, an immovable obstacle in September, won't it?
Foreign Minister: Today is an historic day for Australia. It's the first time in 77 years we have recognised a Palestinian State. Secondly, you know, there are a number of countries who have made this historic move and that does matter. You know it's about contributing to change.
Ferguson: Foreign Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
Foreign Minister: Good to speak with you. Thank you.
