Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Assistant Minister for the Public Service, Assistant Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
TOM CONNELL, HOST: So, Patrick, you're finally going to do it, changes to the capital gains tax. Is this what the people of Australia want?
PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Tom, of course, all the Government's policies will be announced at budget time. I know that you are a patient person. That is just 22 sleeps to go. I am a patient person. I am a parent. At the end of school holidays - after two weeks of extreme patience. So when it comes to future Government policy that will be in the budget, what we've said many times is that our policies haven't changed. But we do recognise the substantial intergenerational inequality in Australia's tax system. We opened up that conversation last year, we have been very relaxed about having that conversation. But it's not for me on your program to announce Government policy. That happens at the budget.Your viewers know that. Jason knows that. You know that. That is probably the best way of dealing with that issue.
CONNELL: Yeah, yeah yeah, alright. I was almost getting told off at the end - 'what are you doing asking that sort of question?'. Jason, do you think the Liberal Party actually needs to think about this? See the policy first? There's many different ways to do this, they could be part of other elements, rather than just go: 'Oh, tax something more, get less of it,' and hear that line. Do you think this could be something here that has more support than it previously did in Australia?
JASON FALINSKI, FORMER LIBERAL MP: What do you mean hear that line? Tom, why is it that the Canberra press gallery won't ever, ever say: 'Hang on, we have now had three decades of "let's just fix this problem with an increase in the tax system."'And three decades later, all the problems that we were meant to fix with increasing taxes are now worse than they've ever been.' Patrick gave us a lecture about patience and how impatient you are, Tom. Let me tell you what I'm impatient for - I'm impatient for some real solutions out of this government. For the problems that have created the intergenerational inequality of which Patrick and his mates are so concerned about. Because the fact of the matter is, it's not intergenerational, it's just been going on for generations. And no government -
CONNELL: But it is becoming intergenerational because an increasing number of people only get in -
FALINSKI: - Either Federal, state or local government has been able to do. Just before this panel came on, you had a story about tobacco tax. These guys put up tobacco taxes because they were going to end smoking as we know it. Smoking is now worse than it's ever been. It's funding criminal gangs, and you've got some bullshit institute funded undoubtedly by the Federal government, who's now telling all the state governments that they have to go and enforce these stupid laws. I've got an answer - why don't you reduce tobacco taxes back to what they were? Because then you'll reduce the incident of smoking, you'll reduce the amount of crime being funded in this country, and you'll get some law and order back into it. Tax is not the answer.
CONNELL: Okay, hello to the parents watching, I guess the kids are back at school so Jason's keeping things a bit colourful. Jason, you mentioned increasing taxes. What we also had with the CGT was a change to the discount, an increase in it being instant, rather than going back to inflation.
FALINSKI: Hey listen, Tom, I'm not buying into this anymore, I'm not buying into the Canberra bubble stuff. When you get to keep your money, it's not a tax concession, it's tax.
CONNELL: Canberra bubble stuff?
FALINSKI: Getting rid of what the Left call a 'concession' is a tax increase. An investment is not an investment if it's just spending. Let's just be honest here. This is a tax increase on housing in this country. It will see rents go up. It will see the availability of housing go down, and in 10 years time, Patrick and I will still be here arguing about how we fix the intergenerational inequality and the housing crisis it created.
CONNELL: When you say it's not intergenerational, Jason, when you're getting a situation where increasingly people will only get a house if they get help from their parents, that is a change. That's when it becomes intergenerational. Are you going to recognise that or not?
FALINSKI: No, Tom. I'm not going to have you on our first panel after six months put words in my mouth.
CONNELL: Alright.
FALINSKI: The fact of the matter here is that just because something's been going on for generations, just because it took us generations to create this problem, doesn't mean that it's intergenerational. It's generational in the sense that we haven't been dealing with the underlying problem.
CONNELL: It is intergenerational now. So do you disagree with that or not?
FALINSKI: No, I don't disagree that people who are younger than you, Tom, you know - like 25, 26 -
CONNELL: Okay, I'm going to go back to Pat.
FALINSKI: - are facing a harder capacity of getting into the property market. Very few people can become property barons like you have. Okay.
CONNELL: Tell you what, I won't take any personal leave again, Jason. I'm whacked for taking a few weeks. I think I'm getting sledged for being old. Pat's lecturing me. Batted from pillar to post over this!
GORMAN: It's tough being a television host, Tom!
CONNELL: It is tough!
FALINSKI: Oh I know, especially on Sky, Patrick!
CONNELL: No one thinks of me! Nothing in the budget for me!
GORMAN: Patrick, we heard from Jim Chalmers that there'll still be savings even in these austere times. What does that mean? Will there be more new savings, than new spending?
GORMAN: The Treasurer was very open about the savings that we've flagged for a long period of time with the states and territories around the National Disability Insurance Scheme, to make sure it's sustainable for the future. I think that gives your viewers a really good insight into how we look at those savings, which is, there are lots of places in the Budget where we can save money and protect good programs so they can run for many more decades. That is how we approach these things. Look at the long term stewardship we have to have of the national economy, the Prime Minister, the Treasurer, all of my colleagues have been really open about the fact that the sorts of decisions that governments have to make in the global circumstances in which we find ourselves - they are difficult decisions. Every single one of them.
CONNELL: Jason, the Coalition's big pre-budget contribution was to railroad Labor into spending billions on cutting fuel excise. Is that a tax cut? Is that the right thing to say, or is that 'record investment in motorists'?
FALINSKI: Ask Patrick, I'd say that's a tax cut. That would be my truth. I'm not sure it helps with intergenerational inequality either.
GORMAN: I will take the opportunity just to agree with Jason. It is a tax cut. It is a tax cut of 32 cents on every litre of fuel. It was the right decision.
FALINSKI: Unrelenting!
GORMAN: We have seen the largest spike in fuel prices in human history. It has caused real pain for Australians, and we chose to do something about it.
FALINSKI: In human history? So that's not true. So in 1972 when we had the Oil Embargo, oil prices in fact, tripled. What we have seen now is like a 50% increase in oil prices.
GORMAN: The speed of the increase in the prices. Fastest -
FALINSKI: No, all of this happened overnight. OPEC would increase the those prices literally over night.
CONNELL: I'm going to get back to Pat, we can talk about the potato famine and go back to crazy inflation if you want. -
FALINSKI: Funny - I was just reading about that the other day.
CONNELL: I listened to a podcast. Pat, PRRT - is Labor serious about getting more revenue out of the PRRT? Another redesign? Or have you been scared off by the gas companies?
GORMAN: We were serious about it in our first term, and we did something about it -
CONNELL: Not much.
GORMAN: And your viewers know that brought in billions of dollars of additional revenue for the Commonwealth, the Australian people. I recognise that these resources are not owned by the energy companies. They are owned by the Australian people, and so, as the custodians of the Australian economy, as the Australian government, we have to be making sure that we have always got our policy settings just right for the circumstances we find ourselves in. It is not something that our Government has announced. We haven't announced a change, but I do acknowledge there's a Senate inquiry that's happening in the moment. I don't know exactly what they're up to, but they're doing a lot of hearings this week, so that's probably why there's a bit more noise about this. I think it has been generated by the attention seekers and the Greens and the Teals, more than the Government.
CONNELL: Alright well, cross that out, not gonna happen. What do you think of this crossbench Jason, I know raising tax is a horrible thing to do?
FALINSKI: Can I ask my question? I never get to ask the question.
CONNELL: Sure, I'm worried about this.
FALINSKI: Can I ask my question? Is it true? Is it true that beer companies pay more tax - I was listening to David Pocock the other day - is it true that beer companies pay more tax than gas companies?
CONNELL AND GORMAN: [SILENCE]
CONNELL: Who are you asking?
FALINSKI: I don't care. I'd just like one of you to answer that question.
CONNELL: Pat. I'll Google it. You go first, Pat.
GORMAN: The last time we talked about this, I pointed out to Jason that we had cut the taxes on draught beer, and that was a good thing for Australian beer drinkers. I am still proud of that policy decision the Albanese Government made. Obviously, every profit-making business in Australia needs to do their share of paying tax, whatever sort of liquid they produce. That is a pretty basic observation of fact. I want to make sure that we've got our tax settings right for our national interest, whether it be when it comes to the work we've done, such as the resource tax cuts that we've put in to make sure there's mining incentives for critical minerals, that's an important thing. Just as we've cut taxes for beer excise.
CONNELL: It - well I don't know - it looks right in quantum Jason - 2.7 billion versus 1.5 billion. Maybe because we drink a lot of beer. Final question for you, Jason. We will go to the traditional format of me asking questions, if I may be so bold. Do we need to raise more money out of our gas? We could use it reduce our reliance on income tax and then it's not a 'tax grab'?
FALINSKI: Why don't you just cut spending?
CONNELL: Why don't you do both?
FALINSKI: Well, I tell you what? Why don't they get rid of the $30 billion that you funnelled through the CFMEU into crime gangs and that your hand-picked administrator in Victoria tried to hide?
CONNELL: Not me by the way.
FALINSKI: Well, how about you do that first before you start taxing people more?
CONNELL: But what about the question? Are we raising a reasonable amount on gas or not?
FALINSKI: We are the most overtaxed country in the world, so why don't we look at getting rid of the fraud, waste and abuse in the NDIS system, before we start taxing people more?
CONNELL: Okay, and once we have done all that? Should we be like Norway and actually have a Future Fund?
GORMAN: Jason, let me give you a tip on that. If you want to talk about getting rid of fraud and waste and the National Disability Insurance Scheme, I think the President of the Press Club and the Minister for Health and the NDIS might be having a bit of a chat on Wednesday. It will be good, tune in, you can watch it on Sky News.
FALINSKI: Well, I better tune in. Is it a private chat, or can we all watch it?
CONNELL: 12:30 on Sky News, not to be missed.
GORMAN: If you don't interrupt, Jason, you can definitely watch.
FALINSKI: I'll probably interrupt.
CONNELL: It feels like Jason's been locked in a basement for week, and he's seen those studio lights, and he's just been unleashed. But I enjoyed it. I'm a masochist. Jason, Pat, see you again next week probably.
GORMAN: Can't wait.
