Gorman MP on ABC's Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: I spoke to the Assistant Employment Minister, Patrick Gorman, a short time ago. Patrick Gorman, welcome to the programme, and congratulations on your new role.

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Thank you very much, Patricia, it's great to be with you.

KARVELAS: Now the final wage result has fallen between the sort of competing demands from the trade union movement and business groups. Do you think that workers deserve more?

GORMAN: I think that this is what we wanted to see, which was a real wage increase. That's what the Government put in our submission. I'm really pleased to see that Australia's workers will be getting a 3.5 per cent increase for those 2.9 million Australian workers who rely on the minimum wage or on award wages, and that means about $1,700 a year. That's a serious wage increase, and will go a long way to helping people on lower incomes with those cost of living pressures that have been the focus of our government.

KARVELAS: Okay, and do you think this 3.5 per cent increase should be the new baseline for enterprise bargaining agreements?

GORMAN: We recognise that when companies and their workers go into enterprise bargaining, they have to have the discussion about what is needed for that particular enterprise. This sets the minimum and award wages, and that's obviously a good thing for the people we rely upon every day. From the people who clean the ABC studios, to people who keep our buildings secure, to the people who might have made you or your viewers a coffee this morning. It's good for those workers. I don't want to set a particular marker of what I expect with different enterprises, where they're looking at what are the needs for their particular businesses, but I think this is a welcome wage increase for those 2.9 million workers across Australia.

KARVELAS: Okay, so you don't see it as the baseline, just to be clear?

GORMAN: Our responsibility as the Australian Government is to put forward a position for the minimum wage review and the award wage review. That's what we've done. We welcome this decision, but I also recognise that when it comes to enterprise bargaining, that's about a range of things. It's about what workers need to be able to do their absolute best at work. It's about what businesses need to be able to deliver for their customers. And so I don't want to set a particular number when it comes to enterprise bargaining across the country, recognising the whole idea of enterprise bargaining is that workers and businesses come together to find a way forward. There's a reason we don't have to have arbitration on all of these matters, it's because enterprise bargaining works.

KARVELAS: The Fair Work Commission said that if they didn't act now it would have entrenched lower living standards. Isn't that a concession that we've actually had lower living standards over the last three years, Minister?

GORMAN: What we've seen in terms of the minimum wage over the three years that Labor has been in office is that the minimum wage has gone up some $9,100. That's a serious increase in the minimum wage -

KARVELAS: But we're still not even back to pre-pandemic levels in terms of standard of living for these workers. We're still behind what they were at five years ago.

GORMAN: I recognise that, and that's why we welcome the decision from the Fair Work Commission today, that is going ahead of inflation. We've obviously had, like many countries around the world, had to deal with some huge global inflation pressures. And we have continued to look for ways to put downwards pressure on inflation, and what we've got now is a situation where inflation is in the Reserve Bank's target range. We've got low unemployment, and we've got wages growing again. Being able to balance all of that is something that we're really proud of in the Albanese Government.

KARVELAS: Look, at the moment, I think today, there's a big government-organised productivity meeting. Just on the broader issues around productivity, because that's at the centre of a lot of this, should business be increasing capital investment to increase productivity?

GORMAN: We have a range of incentives in our Budget that help businesses who are looking to make those investments. Of course, we're always also looking for global capital to come here to Australia, to invest in things like the transformation we're seeing in our energy grids, through to some of the big industries that we need for the future of Australia. But what I'd also note is that when it comes to looking at productivity, it is something, as Minister Rishworth is hosting today, where you need everyone at the table. You need government looking at what we can uniquely do. You need employer representatives there, looking at what are the needs of enterprise, and you need workers at the table.

KARVELAS: Sure.

GORMAN: That's how we're going to get those productivity breakthroughs.

KARVELAS: But in your view, is it actually business, that sort of dragged their feet on these issues of productivity and investing and the kind of things that will lift productivity in workplaces?

GORMAN: I think what's obvious is that we can all do more. Government can do more, employers can do more, and we can find those paths forward. We're not out there looking for a blame game. We're looking for solutions. That's why we've asked the Productivity Commission to give us advice. That's why Minister Rishworth is hosting this meeting today, and it's why we've put productivity front and centre of our second term agenda.

KARVELAS: Okay, but obviously we, you know, everyone doing more is, and I say this respectfully to you as the new Assistant Minister, but they're nice words. People are going to have to see tangible change, right? So how does that happen to accelerate productivity, which is dismal in this country?

GORMAN: Look, I'm not going to talk Australia down that much. I'd say we can do better when it comes -

KARVELAS: Well it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. I mean, that's not about talking Australia down. That's a fact.

GORMAN: The Government itself, we have said that we think we can do more when it comes to productivity. But I don't want to say that we're terrible now. We just know that there is more that can be done, and that does, as you outline, rely upon businesses making additional investments. And not just investments in capital, it's also about investments in our people. I was at the Edith Cowan University City campus this morning with Minister Jason Clare, looking at the massive investment we've got there. Right in the heart of the Perth CBD is going to be a brand new university, training up the next generation. When it comes to the Commonwealth's investments, we've also put those huge investments in Free TAFE, making sure that people can get those skills that do give us a more productive workforce, because people have skills that are both worth more, but they're also able to get more out of their working hours. So we're doing our bit, but I don't want to pretend, and this is again why we've got the Productivity Commission looking into this with some five streams of work, we recognise that there is a lot to be done. It doesn't all rest on any one minister or one part of industry's shoulders. It's a team effort.

KARVELAS: In terms of what happens with this wage increase, do you expect it to be passed on to consumers?

GORMAN: The Fair Work Commission said really clearly that they think that this is a wage increase that the enterprises of Australia can afford to make, based on all the data that was put before them. I would hope that what it means is that you've got customers out there with more money in their pocket, because we're talking about some 2.9 million Australians who are going to have more money to either pay for their essentials, or pay for those things that they'd like to be able to do in their discretionary spending.

KARVELAS: Okay.

GORMAN: So I think it's pretty good news for businesses around Australia, who might have seen that people have been tightening their belts a little bit of recent times. It's good news, and -

KARVELAS: You say it's good news, but I don't think they see it that way. The Ai Group Chief Executive Innes Willox has said that it would saddle the economy with an extra $5 billion burden in the coming financial year. Is he wrong?

GORMAN: The way we look at it, if you think about what this means, it's 2.9 million Australians who will benefit from these wage increases. That's about 20 per cent of the workforce, but it's only about 10 per cent of the wage bill. The Fair Work Commission really clearly outlined this. It's only about 10 per cent of the nation's wage bill, so it's not going to send huge changes in terms of the projections that businesses would have already made. Businesses know that every year we go through this process, they would already have factored in some expectation of a wage increase. Now that we've got that figure of 3.5 per cent, businesses can get on, pass that on from 1 July on to their workers, and that money can flow through to the bank accounts of working people.

KARVELAS: You know how we had this big debate at the election, and a backlash, really to the Coalition's idea about working from home? As the new Assistant Minister on employment, do you think working from home should become more of the norm? Is it your view that there should be more of it?

GORMAN: We didn't just flick this switch overnight. It's something that was happening before we hit the pandemic. It's something that's expanded in recent years. I support work from home because it gives flexibility for both employees and employers. It helps in my other responsibility as the Assistant Minister for the Public Service. It helps us get the skills and talent that we need into the public service. There are some employees here in Perth, Western Australia who are working as part of national teams in the Tax Office and elsewhere. I see the benefits. And so I think we will see in the years ahead, an expansion of different types of work from home, but also some recognition there are some jobs that we know simply can't be done from home. And so that does mean that some employees miss out on those benefits. And we've got to have the conversation about how do you make sure that we recognise that it's not available for every employee in every workplace.

KARVELAS: Just on the defection, because you're a WA member as well, the defection of Dorinda Cox, who is now in your party room. That was announced pretty surprisingly yesterday. There's stories about how this all culminated in a big party room dispute she had in The Greens. Did she just join the Labor Party because she couldn't get elected to a leadership role in The Greens?

GORMAN: I've heard what Senator Cox has said, as you have and your viewers, which is that she, after a long period of reflection, realised that her values and the way that she wants to do politics, is best aligned with the way the Australian Labor Party holds our values and the way that we seek to actually deliver change.

KARVELAS: Okay.

GORMAN: Now I don't know what happened in The Greens party room. They are one of the most secretive parties in Australian politics. I don't know what happened there. But what I do know is that I've worked really closely with Senator Cox on a range of things over the years. I've welcomed her into the Labor Party. I look forward to working with her in the Labor Party through our caucus processes and elsewhere, and I think she's going to make an excellent contribution, not just to the great state of Western Australia, but to the nation.

KARVELAS: Let me ask you this, if you run under a particular party's platform, like, for instance, Fatima Payman ran as a Labor person, or Dorinda Cox ran as a Greens person, shouldn't you be fair and honest with the people who voted you on that platform?

GORMAN: Well, that's not how Australia's electoral laws work, and we amended those electoral laws last year. There was a lot of discussion about how our electoral laws should be set up for the future. That wasn't a proposal that was carried forward. So again, I welcome Senator Dorinda Cox into the Labor -

KARVELAS: Well then why did you all say that Fatima Payman should resign the parliament and, you know, try and run not as a Labor person, then, if that's not how it works? I mean, it seems like a real double standard.

GORMAN: As for Senator Payman, I think your viewers can go and look at the electoral results that she received at the recent election, and whether or not there was a strong community endorsement for her actions or not. When it comes to what's happened here with Senator Cox, this is about someone who has been in the parliament for a period of time, has reflected upon how she best thought to get things done for the people she represents as a senator for Western Australia, she's come to the conclusion that she sees that that is through being a member of the Labor caucus. I welcome her to the Labor caucus, and I think she's going to be able to make a bigger contribution as a part of the Labor team, and I'm really excited about what she'll bring to our internal discussions and also into the debates in the Senate.

KARVELAS: Thanks for joining us this afternoon.

GORMAN: Thanks, PK.