Minister for Indigenous Australians
Subjects: Closing the Gap, NT Child Protection Laws
SALLY SARA, HOST: Staying with federal politics and there was some good news yesterday on the Closing the Gap targets, with more than 95% of First Nations children enrolled in preschool. But a Productivity Commission report shows outcomes are worsening in four other areas including early childhood development, children in out of home care, adult incarceration and suicide rates. Malarndirri McCarthy is the Minister for Indigenous Australians and joins me now from Darwin. Minister, welcome back to breakfast.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Good morning, Sally and good morning to your listeners.
HOST: How do you reflect on the outcome for First Nations preschool enrolments?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, I'm certainly pleased to see the Productivity Commission's reporting on this. It is important to see this milestone achieved and that is because of the work of the Aboriginal Community Controlled sector and those involved in the preschool sector. So, it is a contribution that shows it can be done. Clearly, the challenges with all the other targets remain but I do take heart at the fact that this has been achieved for Target 3.
HOST: Enrolments are one thing, attendance is another. What do the figures show about attendance for preschool?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, we certainly look at what you said in your introduction there, Sally, and that is about the concerns around developmentally improving. We still have a lot of work to do, in terms of getting our children up to a certain standard in those areas. Every bit helps. And obviously the enrolment is a critical part of it.
HOST: To go back to the question, what do the attendance figures show?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, the attendance figures would differ from each state and territory, and the Education Ministers would have certainly a better oversight as to how that looks. What we're dealing with is the targets that come directly under the Joint Council, which in this instance is the enrolment figures.
HOST. So, we're not sure, once kids are enrolled, we're not sure about their attendance from a federal level?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, certainly the Education Minister would be. What I focus on is the 19 targets specifically as to how the Indigenous Affairs Ministers are dealing with those across the states and territories.
HOST: How disappointed are you that the outcomes continue to worsen in four other key measures?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, it's very, very difficult to deal with these situations where you have particular pieces of legislation that see the high incarceration rates of First Nations people. What that means is that we have to go harder. We have to keep pushing the states and territories around the justice factors. Clearly that is a real concern. I have certainly seen that in the jurisdictions that I travel, but also the one I live in, with the Northern Territory.
HOST: The Productivity Commission says it still lacks the data to fully evaluate the progress for some targets. In the government's view, is this a problem and what
measures are being put in place to try and improve that?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, there's 19 targets all up, 17 that the Productivity Commission looks at, Sally. We obviously have to keep working with the Productivity Commission. The Joint Council is made up of Indigenous Affairs Ministers and the Coalition of Peaks. We will be meeting again in November. And part of the data collation is very, very critical. So, the gaps that the Productivity Commission may have, we have to work with them to ensure that we can get the appropriate data.
HOST: The Productivity Commissioner, Selwyn Button, says the deadline for meeting most of the Closing the Gap targets is 2031. So, Australia is, quote, already past the halfway point. Given only three targets are on track to be met. Is there a significant change in approach required to hit those milestones?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, there has been in terms of, certainly my role with the remote and regional parts of Australia, Sally. I've really focused a lot on the employment statistics, improving poverty, trying to elevate people in our communities out of poverty, knowing that that is a critical part of some of the overall issues behind the figures that we see. And also improving housing. What we've done at the federal level is to see 3,000 jobs rolled out across remote Australia with another 3,000 jobs on top of that, plus the reduction in the cost of living with the food security. So, we have around 120 stores across remote Australia that are now providing food at half the price. So, these will contribute to those statistics, but it will take us time to see it come through.
HOST: And just going back to preschool, which we were talking about earlier, the Bureau of Statistics released figures on 27th of March this year. It said there were, in 2025, 17,642 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids attending preschool. 58% had an estimated annual attendance of 600 hours or more and overall for kids it was 72%. So, they're the best numbers that I can find, just as we were talking about that issue. Just separately, last year you said financial penalties are on the table for state and territory governments which fail to meet their Closing the Gap commitments. Do you think financial penalties are needed to make Closing the Gap targets a reality?
MINISTER McCARTHY: It's certainly something that I've followed through, Sally. It certainly is something I am pursuing. I have done it with the Northern Territory, in terms of the Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment. Where we have made an arrangement with the Northern Territory with remote areas around over $800 million and wanted to see, and I've incorporated in that agreement, in line with much of the Closing of the Gap and having the first ever Aboriginal Community Controlled agreement where you also have Aboriginal stakeholders at the table with both the Commonwealth and the Northern Territory. So, I've done it here. Time will tell, to see how that goes. I'm certainly pursuing it also with my colleagues, in regards to their federal funding agreements. I will have my Ministerial Working Group, where I know my colleagues recognise that this is an important area to pursue.
HOST: Is the Federal Government considering any other changes to federal funding arrangements to hold state and territory governments accountable for Closing the Gap?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, I'm clearly putting it on my agenda, Sally. It will take a case of working with my colleagues to see if I can get certainly support to take that through to Cabinet, but I am determined to work in that space.
HOST: Last week the NT Parliament passed changes to child protection laws with NT Chief Minister Lia Finocchiaro saying the Country Liberal Party was putting the right of a child to be safe first and above all else. Critics have raised concerns the bill could weaken the Aboriginal Child Placement Principle and lead to more removals. What is the federal government's view?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, I certainly put out a statement, along with the Special Envoy Marion Scrymgour, about our concerns on that. We've seen, even just with these stats that have come through with the Productivity Commission, how out of home care and kinship care really matters, it does make a big difference in the lives of First Nations children. In fact, we've seen the figures go up slightly in the Northern Territory, around the fact that children are with First Nations families. Now that we've obviously seen the legislation go through last week, we're probably going to see those figures turn the other way around. And I will be watching all of that very closely and working with my federal colleagues, in particular, Tanya Plibersek on that.
HOST: The National Indigenous Times is reporting that Tanya Plibersek, the Social Services Minister, spoke at a conference in Sydney yesterday and ruled out the Commonwealth intervening and overturning this legislation in the NT. However, she did say that, quote, I'm looking for opportunities to put pressure on them to do the right thing. Do you know what they could be?
MINISTER McCARTHY: Well, it's what we're doing all the time. I mean, I raise financial penalties and looking at what we're doing with our funding agreements across each state and territory jurisdiction, working with the Indigenous Affairs Ministers so that they're pushing the Cabinet around their jurisdictions. There are many ways to look at this, and I know that I'll be working very closely with Minister Plibersek on it.
HOST: Malarndirri McCarthy, thank you very much for joining me this morning.
MINISTER McCARTHY: No worries. Thank you Sally.
HOST: Malarndirri McCarthy is the Minister for Indigenous Australians.
